Would you consider Ilhan Omar as an Islamist?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Glücksritter, Mar 22, 2023.

  1. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Don't know why you needed to make this thread, or show all those video's. She IS a Muslim who follows the Islam faith just like all Muslims do. So yes, she is an Islamist. Now, if you are asking if she's an extremist....She is extreme, but not so extreme that she's going to wear a bomb vest. In other words, if she could I have no doubt she would make Islam a national religion and all others must be banned. But I don't think she's so extreme that she's willing to kill people over it.
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It WAS Republicans who were loudest about slaughtering Muslims.

    I don't believe you have thought through your argument here.

    And, that isn't helped by using your right wing radicals to feed you how to interpret what Congressmen Omar says.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
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  3. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    You're making leaps and bounds of assumption. Seems to me if you want a look at crazy, see MTG.
     
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  4. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    I think either you wanna confuse the issue or are simply incapable to read. This thread is not about Ilhan Omar, whose Islamist mindset I consider to be obvious and gave my arguments, why I think so.


    And further bullshit talk off topic.
    You know what isnt helping neither you nor the other Omar supporters here. None of you were even capable to reply to even one argument I made in the OP. I mean her supporters seem to be even sillier than herself. It would have been pretty easy to at least share her silly excuse to e.g. the accusation of anti-Semitism, by at least pretending you believe her, she didnt know there are anti-Semitic stereotypes including Jews using their money to control the verb. I consider it to be silly and assume she didnt knew, I think nobody with good judgement would believe her, but ok, you could state you believe her that she never heard of anti-Semitic stereotypes like that.

    Instead all the bullshit of Omar-supporters for so long have been exclusively to confuse the issue. "But Israel" - no I wasnt referring to her attitude towards Israel, but to her remark "Its all about the Benjamins"; "but the Republicans" - no its not about arguing if there are anti-Semitic Republicans as well; "but you judge Erdogan unfairly" - no its not about how I judge Erdogan, be an Erdogan supporter if you want, its not the issue here, now you go on with:

    And hey, guess what, its not about right-wing radicals here. I gave clear evidence which backs my opinion and all Omar supporters until now were incapable of arguing even in one of the four incidents I gave, just like you once more showed us here.
     
  5. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    And one more Omar-supporter incapable to argue even one of the given arguments, just another "but MTG". Thats I think the third time this is brought up, maybe I should start leading a bullshit bingo list here for Omar supporters who try to confuse the issue with "but MTG". I dont know who MTG is, I dont give a **** who MTG is, its for this topic completely irrelevant who that even is.
     
  6. StillBlue

    StillBlue Well-Known Member

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    Sure, would you consider T**** a Christian?
    I sure don´t.
     
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  7. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    Although I see Islam as such critical myself, there is no doubt that not every Muslim shares her view on infidels. As an example Erdogan is not indisputed in Turkey, although the population is overwhelmingly muslim. In Indonesia there are Muslims who feel threatened by Islamization, although the first victims are Christians, there are Muslim people in Iran who support and help the Bahai. I dont wanna whitewash anything and dont wanna show it as exemplaric, but these people exist. Pretty sure Ilhan Omar sees these kind of muslims as traitors.
     
  8. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    "But what about Trump" ...
     
  9. clovisIII

    clovisIII Well-Known Member

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    I hope you do know that this resolution passed by an overwhelming majority of the house, WAS NOT RECOGNIZED BY THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE :eyepopping::eyepopping::eyepopping:
    So I think your disgust is a little misplaced
    https://www.france24.com/en/2019121...dmin-says-doesn-t-recognize-armenian-genocide

    The history of the recognition of the Armenian genocide is shocking in the US. One of the last first world countries to recognise this. The passage is fraught with politics that are truly shocking (early attempts derailed in 2007 by lobbying). I do think that Omar should have voted for the resolution, even though she had a point. I am glad that the congress voted for it. Shocked that the White House did not accept the resolution.
     
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  10. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    Oh, another Omar-supporter, which has nothing to reply but a "but what about Trump". "Well I cannot say anything about the clear evidence that Omar is in fact an Islamist, but I know one thing for sore, you better look atr Donald Trump".

    Get in line, that line streches about two pages already.

    What point did she have? The point she is making "Whether or not there was a genocide on the Armenian people and should be a subject of science and research" is a vintage holocaust denier's argument held by people who usually agree with the genocide of the Jews, but realize their moral position could gain them few sympathies, thus using excuses like "but you cannot say there was a Holocaust, because you are blocking science and research on that topic", when in fact there is nothing to argue about that happened. And that illustrates Ilhan Omar's attitude perfectly.

    Is that the good point you are talking about?
     
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  11. clovisIII

    clovisIII Well-Known Member

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    No. My reply was to the OP who thought Omar was " of the most disgusting US politicians I have ever witnessed" because of her present vote on this resolution. It seemed to me obvious that the OP was not aware that the White House refused to acknowledge this resolution. So not whatabaoutism at all, I honestly believe that the OP feels very strongly about the recognition of the Armenian genocide and might not be aware of this.
    The point that I agree with, but I still condemn Omar for not voting on this resolution is that this recognition was clearly passed only at a time where it was politically advantageous to give Turkey a black eye. This was not a recognition over a century after the facts, but a political move to damage Turkey. So still completely in favour of the passed resolution, still think that Omar should have voted for it, but she is not wrong in saying that this is being used right now as a political cudgel.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/12/us/politics/senate-armenian-genocide.html
     
  12. clovisIII

    clovisIII Well-Known Member

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    https://anca.org/armenian-genocide/recognition/united-states/kentucky/

    By the way, you can see here when each state in the US finally recognised the Armenian Holocaust.
    It will be no surprise which states were late at the table (Mississippi being the last one to acknowledge the holocaust in 2022)
    Also surprised that the resolution in question has 11 repubs vote against it (8 dems and 8 repubs voted present or did not vote )
     
  13. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    Thats plain and simply wrong. I didnt condemn her bc of her present vote on this topic but for her choice of words, which make her a denier of the genocide.

    I would go with the recognition, but there is a wide difference between political reasons for not officially regonizing it (which doesnt deny that it happened) and denier the genocide. Here in Germany there are laws against Holocaust denial for example.

    Isnt it obvious that you can have valid reasons to be against such a law, e.g. "I see that critical as it violates the freedom of speech which is a high value in a democratic society" and reasons which make you appear as an anti-Semite like "Well wether or not there was a Holocaust should be decided by scientists"? The ladder is exactly the positioning of Ilhan Omar towards the Armenian genocide.

    Germany recognized this Armenian genocide in 2017, you can critizize it, but you cannot blame the people who did neither want to have a conflict with a NATO-partner nor wanted to face their own role in it (Germany was one of the few countries which could have at least tried harder to stop it) that they denied this genocide. Same goes for the US or other countries who didnt officially recognize it.

    The point is Ilhan Omar's argument is exactly that of the deniers of this genocide and she brings their positions into congress. That is a line she didnt even cross with her anti-Semite conspiracy talk nor with her "some people did something" talk about 9/11. This is - so far - the most unforgivable remark she made.

    That could be true, but how often is it that way in diplomacy? And to make my point clear again, you can critizize the attitude, but someone Republican or Democrat who voted against it with the argument "I dont know if its convenient to upset our NATO-partner Turkey" thus voting against it, is something completely different from a denier who states "in the end a scientific debate must clear the table whether or not there was a genocide".

    As for the big picture, that detail alone would speak volumes about her and her character, but that alone it would be a weak indication to label her as an Islamist. There are a lot of Turkish nationalists, their allies etc. who deny that genocide. You may find one or two republicans who would do so, I dont know. What I did, is, I gave you an example of 4 different incidents and scenarios, in which she talks from ignorant to hateful about the victims of Islamist violence, which kind of looks llike a pattern to me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  14. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The definition of "islamist" is simple. It is a person who

    1. Believes in fundamentalist's views of islam and
    2. Demands for implementation of sharia law as the law of the land

    So, Omar is an islamist if she meets those two criteria.
     
  15. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    No!

    That is how your great definition starts?`:D How about the great and simple definition "An Islamist is an islamist", its about the same value as yours :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What's the value of your post?

    Its really not my definition, or my opinion. Words have meanings. If you have a different definition, then why not share it as opposed to sharing meaningless emojis? What is it that you disagree with?

    - political islam / islamic fundamentalism

    - relating to, advocating, or supporting Islamic fundamentalism.

    - an advocate or supporter of Islamic fundamentalism; a person who advocates increasing the influence of Islamic law in politics and society.

    - a person who believes strongly in Islam, especially one who believes that Islam should influence political systems

    - a religious ideology with a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam whose final aim is the conquest of the world by all means.



     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  17. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is your definition because no serious encyclopedia would give a definition like "An Islamist is a person who shares fundamentalist views of Islam". Thats close to "An Islamist is an Islamist" or an "elephant is an elephant". Its correct of course by definition, but has no value whatsoever. I dont disagree, I just disagree with your nonchallant introduction, that its pretty easy.

    In short, I have given here 4 examples in which Ilhan Omar is talking from ignorant to hateful of victims of Islamic violence in otherwise completely different contexts, referring to Americans, Armenians, Jews and Indians. I am aware I cannot look into her brain and see her exact interpretation of the Quran. And yes, there may be a one in a million chance, that she just hates average US Americans for being too fat, that she just despises Jews in a non-islamistic context, because she is a secret Hitler admirer, she just finds Armenian music terrible thus wishes they would disappear from earth and just thinks Indian stink like Curry. Thats would not make her appear in any way better, but would be an alternative explanation why she talks how she is talking.

    It just doesnt appear very likely to me and the only reasonable similarity in her despise of the groups given above is that those are the victims of Islamistic violence and she identifies with the perpetrators in that case and not with the victims. If you have a better explanation for it, especially if you think her statements are acceptable and you think you could make her appear in a better light (which my unlikely example above taking her out of an Islamist context doesnt), feel free to refer to it and give your point of view. You would be the first Omar supporter to do so, cause guess what ... no Omar supporter made it further than "but what about Trump".
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  18. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    <<MOD ALERT--PLEASE KEEP REPLIES CIVIL AND DO NOT ATTACK OTHERS WHO HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS>>
     
  19. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In short: A person is an "islamist" if he/she meets the definition of islamist, but so far no one has shown that Omar meets the definition

    Conclusion: She is a muslim, but not islamist

    Not all muslims are islamists.

    Definitions of "islamist aka "political islam / islamic fundamentalism"

    - relating to, advocating, or supporting Islamic fundamentalism.

    - an advocate or supporter of Islamic fundamentalism; a person who advocates increasing the influence of Islamic law in politics and society.

    - a person who believes strongly in Islam, especially one who believes that Islam should influence political systems

    - a religious ideology with a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam whose final aim is the conquest of the world by all means.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  20. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    It amazes me that there are so many citizens of the U.S. that are anti-American. There was a time, not all that long ago, that this wasn't true.
     
  21. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Islamist maybe......anti-American, DEFINITELY!
     
  22. Surfer Joe

    Surfer Joe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed. I’ve never seen so many putin apologists.
     
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  23. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    And who continue to support a candidate who tried to overthrow our democratic elections.
     
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  24. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You brought nothing to the table, so I moved on. I provided definitions of "islamist" and noted Omar quite doesn't fit the bill. Your personal opinion in the matter is irrelevant to me.

    Who do you think you are telling others to leave the thread?

    Sheeh......and you wonder why people don't bother discussing things with you


    Sure seems that way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  25. Glücksritter

    Glücksritter Well-Known Member

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    I cannot recall to have read even Putin here before your next trial to confuse the issue. Whats really strange as I dont know Ilhan Omar's point of view about Putin, but the last I read from so called progressives with whom she generally associates herself with is that:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...hift-strategy-and-directly-engage-with-russia

    So if you wanna make a thread about Putin apologists, who also have a record to defend Putin allies like Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua etc. who support Putin's mass murders feel free. But here it was about Ilhan Omar's statements towards the victims of Islamic violence, I dont see Putin playing a huge role in it other than as an arch enemy of the West many progressive democrats obviously feel with him that way, thus searching for an opportunity to force an armistice in his favour he can use to better prepare for his next attack, thereby ignoring the rights of the Ukraine.
     

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