WWJT? - "Who Would Jesus Torture?"

Curious if there are any religious conservatives who are opposed to torture or "enhanced interrogation techniques"....

or are they all in lock-step in supporting it and claiming that their religious faith approves of such things.

Naturally, it's particularly ironic, given the treatment given to Jesus before his execution.

 

Whenever someone brings up Islamic terrorism, you try to derail the thread by pointing to how violent Christianity is.

Whenever someone suggests using violence, you counter by pointing to how peaceful Christianity is.

You can't have it both ways.

 

Oddly, didn't do either.

I'm asking Christians how they justify supporting torture and reconcile it with their religious faith.

That a problem?

 

Thread makes no point, but in some of the lost books of the Bible, Infancy 1 and 2, Jesus did some interesting things in the field of "torture," probably why those books got cut out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

 

Naturally, it's not ironic, given the false equivalency.

 

Well, presently being earth bound right now and thus having some carnal thinking, I would like to suggest He start with Christian-baiting trolls......you know, the pot-stirring, vain ego, non-edifying types that we find on forums like this who like to flap their jaws and feel self important.

 

>>>MOD EDIT Quoted Post and Response Deleted<<<

Fine...explain how it's a false equivalency in detail, Talon.

Explain how a Christian can support torture and how torture does not violate Christian teachings.

Or just say "Nuh-huh"

 

I don't see this as a troll tread at all. It is a question I'd like an honest answer to as well.

 

The majority of Americans in general support torture of radical islamists.
Folks like you are part of the left wing faction who don't, so who is in the extreme and who is following lockstep? LOL

 

Why do I have to explain this to you, Cap'n?

For starters, was KSM flogged within an inch of his worthless existence?

I'll leave it to your Christian bêtes noires to answer that question.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to Club Gitmo to do a little recreational waterboarding...

 

Pouring water over a persons face, making them stand still for hours, listening to loud, rock music for hours, etc, is not torture. If they are not being stretched, having their intestines pulled out, their nails ripped out, eyes gouged out, etc. than it's not torture.

 

Reading just the NT scriptures, there is His speech of peace and doesnt mention war. But where He tells Peter to carry a sword is somewhat confusing, altho many will spiritualize it as "the word of God" being 'sharper & active as a 2-edged sword.'

Again, rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's has been used to justify joining modern nation's armies for national defense, altho rejected by the Amish et al, who are classic fundamentalists and beyond.

And then of course, there is the 'treading of the winepress' of the returning Christ's enemies and the war between heaven & earth at the end times spilling much blood.

And of course the scripture that says "the kingdom of God suffers violence, and the violent take it by forth' but also "we war not against flesh & blood but spiritual principalities...."

Many things to think upon, but again when one is put into the 'ticking time bomb' box of saving a loved one who is in immediate danger and the answer to the situation is evident by coercion. "we" all would do the same thing!

Goes along with the question I always had with those who oppose all physical force:

"If Jesus had come across His mother, Mary, being brutally assaulted & raped by a group of men, WWJD? React as He did with the money changers in the temple? Or calmly, still being a mortal man, use words & Godly power (doing ONLY the will of His Father) to settle the situation?

I vote react as a mortal man & son and take physical charge!!

 

When Gorn opens a thread called "WHWMSO? - Who's Head Would Muhammad Saw Off?" I'll see this thread as something other than flamebait.

 

Ted Cruz said it was, just the other day.

- - - Updated - - -

Talon, if you're not a Christian, then this post doesn't apply to you, does it?

You're perfectly free to relish in your enjoyment of torture and it have no impact on your religious beliefs, since they don't exist.

 

The treatment that Jesus suffered before his execution would be considered torture without any stretch of the imagination. The difference you don't seem to get is that Jesus could have stopped it or his execution at any time. He chose not to and did so on behalf of those willing to accept his teachings.

I'm sure people like you want to bake cookies, sit around a campfire, and sing songs with the terrorists that would like nothing more than to destroy us thinking if we are nice to them, they'll be nice back.

 

Ted Cruz? Well he and McCain are also wrong.

 

People like Gorn think if we are nice to terrorists, they'll suddenly be nice back to us. They are called terrorists for a reason. We either have to fight in a manner that makes them think twice or we will lose. The left wants us to fight in a manner not based on winning but based on not losing. With that attitude, we will lose.

 

I agree, its a fair question to those conservatives who are also Christians.

That said, I think it is also fair to question of the violence to conservative Islam.

I am not convinced that just because the radical factions get the publicity that the support for violence ends there.

 

First, thank you for actually ANSWERING the question.....not only without personal insults or "Nuh-huh"....but with some thought and Scriptural citations.

Second, "just war" of course dates to St. Augustine and him trying to resolve the "appearance" of a support for pacifism by Jesus in the Bible....and politically expedient, even morally needed support for war, in some cases, by Christians.

Augustine had to make the argument that an evil like war was often necessary to defeat a greater evil. This principle has held true for most Christians (less Quakers and others who were pacifists) since that time.....with almost all finding the ability to reconcile the teachings of Jesus and fighting a "good war"....from the American Revolution to World War-II.

Torture though gets dicier. A Christian could argue that killing a German soldier in Bastogne in 1944 might be jusified to eventually stop the Holocaust ......but would torturing that German soldier for hours or days, to find out where a tank deployment was, also be justified?

And what if the torture of the German was to get information on "How many shipments of petroleum will come from Ploesti to Munich on April 5th?"......it might be somewhat useful war information....but would it be "morally right" to keep a man in pain for hours or days?

And what if that German had no information. It seems ASSUMED by all supporters of torture that "only the guys with information we need" would be tortured......though a few sadistic/racist types seem to be fine with "Torture 'em all....all them A-rabs are guilty of something".

- - - Updated - - -

Did Pontus Pilate and the Romans feel their torture of Jesus was justified?

- - - Updated - - -

Oddly, I find a lot of folks who have never been tortured....who believe they are more "expert" on it than John McCain....

who has been.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Yes, that's exactly what I said....exactly. Conserv65 can even quote me saying that.

2. Who determines if they are terrorists, C65?

 

Going back to the scenario that we must all honestly face 'in our minds:' WWGCD?

We are all mortal men/women with some carnality built into our existence no matter how "Holy" we may try to appear. For our loved ones, most of us would not only torture but also give our own lives for them....can you 'honestly ' say that YOU wouldnt?!! Dont make me call you a Liar!

 

You don't have to actually say it. When you fight barbaric people, you damn well better be willing to fight their way or you will lose.

The experts make that determination and you aren't one of them. I someone is willing to strap a bomb to themself, fly planes into building, etc., they're terrorists. We have changed the way we look at things based on 9-11. One of the aspects of terrorism isn't as much about what happens as getting people you want to terrorize to think and wonder when is the next time it will.

 

First, I don't believe all Muslims are guilty of something, much less Arabs.

Second, while mistakes undoubtedly happened, most of the guests at GITMO did not get there accidently.

Third, as someone who has actually been through CAC training, let me tell you that no acquired intelligence is taken at face value. It is all compared/contrasted against known factual information and/or other new information from different sources and evaluated, essentially to see if it makes sense.

Lastly, for the most part, if you are captured and interrogated, you are encouraged to tell your captors what you know. Hollywood may say otherwise but everyone talks. It is just a question of when and how much of you is left when you do. Rather than ask good men to endure torture, they acknowledge that you will eventually break anyway and simply limit how much information any one person has.

Now that doesn't mean you will be spared torture completely but the theory is it will lessen the degree and duration.

The captured terrorists could have just started talking. Sometimes it isn't smart to be the tough guy.

 

So by that rationale...you'd support US forces BEHEADING prisoners too?

Who are these "experts" exactly, C65? US military?.... CIA agents?....Government bureaucrats?

- - - Updated - - -

So then SOME were sent there accidentally? Even if a small number?

 

Why would he do that? Muslims are second only to blacks as the most loyal democratic voting bloc.

If it aint broke dont fix it why ruin a good thing amirite?

 

Really? Because Dubya won the Muslim vote in 2000.