Yes, Virginia There is a Hell -- Jesus Said So

And now we have ... eight year old.

This is your favorite subject, hell, you came in voluntarily, and are being asked to use your self declared intellectual superiority to make a case.

So do so, or continue to pout.

#1 - Thesis?

#2 - Some supporting evidence, beyond - BECAUSE IS SAY SO CHRISTIAN WANKER!!!!! We call this the Cartmen model, and it is generally considered poor form.

#3 - Rebuttal of common counters - demonstrating that you actually understand the concept and are not just pulling a Cartmen.

#4 - Restate your conclusion with the basics of the supporting arguementation.

That is how logical arguementation works. Try it. You claim it as yoru birthright, give it a go - just once.

 

The idea of Hell itself was created after Jesus died. It is based on a Norse goddess of the same name. Hell was the Goddess of Torment, and daughter of Loki God of Mischief. The Christian version was created in order to frighten the Norse into converting

Hell is never mentioned in the bible until the New Testament. In the Old Testament, the punishment for sin is Seperation from God, and that is the only punishment, and for anyone who truly loves god, that is punishment enough. This version actually makes more sense, in that people are not frightened into worshiping god by pain of eternal torment, but by fear of being seperated from him. I heard a Rabbi say once, that true Hell is being away from God, and that is all the punishment that anyone who truly loves god needs in order to be spurred to repent.

 

No, actually, Hell is mentioned in the Bible. It is barely mentioned, but it is mentioned in the New Testament Several times in several different Chapters of the synoptic gospels. In the Old Testament, he is known as the bringer or source of death. In teh New Testament, Jesus in tempted by the Devil during the period of the resurrection, and the sharp contrast between earthly powers and spiritual powers is drawn.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:2

That is the general tone of the comments on hell, and almost always these admonitions about hell are attributed directly to Jesus himself. Indeed, the idea of Lucifer, is a critical component to Christianity.

To begin with, in understanding the development and solidification of teh Devil in Christianity, one need realize that during the time of the old testament, there were many different religions who inflicted a great deal of harm on the small and remote sect of Juddaism. Indeed, Baal, who was worshipped in the region during this period is variously thought to be both a local idiol worshipper and is often referred to as Lord of the flies - he is also specifically mentioned in regard to Satan. Regardless of the exact stature as demon or nature God, the simple fact of the matter is that Baal begins this process in Christianity.

In Christian doctrine, this whole process starts with a jealous angle who rejects God, as man can do, and is caste our of heaven. He tempts, he induces, he lies, he manipulates, etc., in a competition, quote literally, for the souls of men.

The Devil is a critical component to the Christian idea of the wages of Sin, the idea that our actions and choices have consequences here and now, and hereafter. From this idea flows the concept of judgement as well, in which those who choose God, who follow his commandments, who seek repentence for sins and are frogiven through grace are rewarded for it both here and in the hereafter. Those who reject it, fail to acknowledge sin, are cruel, vicious, and evil, well, there are consequences to that to. Hardly earth shattering stuff here.

As for its origins in Norse religions? I have absolutely no idea how Nordic Gods would have made it to Jerusalem in the first century. Almost all religions have a concept of Hell, the most prominent and certainly circulated among the Romans is the idea of Hades. The idea of good and evil, of good works having good consequences and bad works having bad consequences is hardly new or earth shattering. The stark contrast between good and evil, between God and the devil, makes clear that during this life we will be tempted by both as our character is tested, weighed, and ultimately judged.

As simply as it gets, you can choose to a life of sin, of rejection of forgiveness and accountability - but eventually, you will be united with the origins of your choices, one way or the other.

It why the warning comes to be: the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he was not real.

 

But I will take the time to make my argument, and you will begin hearing voices and dishing out vulgar red herrings.

What is the point?

You are one of the darkest most hateful people I have ever encountered.

 

So, when challenged to give a logical arguement, you accuse people, without evidence, of being insane and throwing out red herrings? Of being hate filled people?

Brother, take a good hard look in the mirror.

The fact that you cannot make an arguement is why you are losing.

Your inability to turn something you care about in to cogent statement, and instead allow it to erupt in anger and abuse is no ones fault but yours.

As I said, I will continue to correct your egregious lies about my faith, abou the faith of MANY others.

Accoutability is a good thing. Those who view it as insanity and evil ar ethe ones in error - grave error.

Check yourself.

 

Again, you have sense of irony.

 

Because I am not the one making an arguement? Because I am teh one calling you evil? Because I am the one repeatedly interrupting thread to demonize and insult you?

No brother, you simply care about something you are failing to articulate and lashing out blindly.

YOU are responsible for what YOU say and write. Every ethical code, legal system, moral construct the world over makes that point clear. There is no irony in that. Stop rationalizing and make case. If you cannot, conceed defeat. Or continue to lash out and eventually be banned for repeated TOS violations. Your choice.

 

The fact that Hell is not and never has been a part of the Jewish faith is proof that it is not in the Old Testament. Hell, by name is never once mentioned in the qworld Testament and never even mentioned in concept. There is not one mention of a lake of fire, or eternal torment as punishment for sin. The New Testament may mention it, but then again, The new Testament is completely seperate from the old and many concepts for created in Christianity that did not exist in Judaism. Quite frankly Hell is not realy needed to begin with, in Judaism or CHristianity. Satan was bannished to earth. His sole meaning is to tempt Humanity. There does not need to be a realm for him to rule over, since Earth is his realm. That is why all things "earthly" are assoicated with being evil, because the devil rules over earth.

As for the concept of Hell and it's connection to Norse Mythlogy, as I said before, The name and concept of Hell was taken from the Norse Goddess of Torment (Sometimes Spelled Hel, in the Norse tradition), who resides over a realm of the same name. Her realm is that of fire and torment, almost exactly as it is in Christianity. However, the Norse version dates back centuries before Christianity was formed.

The first versions of Hell, did not start arrising until around the time when Christianity had spread to Europe, and of course to Norway. The fact is that many of the New Testament books were not written by any of the people they were conected two, but by either their followers, or by Biblical scholars who used their name to gain their works credibility.

 

We are not really disagreeing except for the Norse thing.

How would a mythology confined to Northern Europe pass through the ROman Empire, which has its own hell (Hades) mind you, and implant itself on Christianity?

Hellenic Greek may not make the same word connection that appears obvious in modern English - whereas Baal worship is mentioned specifically in the Bible, there is no mention whatsoever of the any of the Norse religions, nor Buddhism, or Hinduism, etc.

The idea of 'Hell', of consequence is found in many mythology.

 

The Greek and Roman Underworld is a place where ALL dead go, regardless of sin. In Greek and Roman mythology, a person could live a complete good life and he would still go to the Underworld. That is not the same as Hell.

 

There is some Biblical reference to Hades and there being a place called "Abraham's Bosom" where the souls of the pre-Christ blessed waited until Jesus, during the period in which he was in the tomb, descended and freed them to enter into Heaven.

 

Yep, and they are separated into different levels, the top close to heaven, and the worst close to Hell - with a few levels in between.

Heaven-Purgatory-Hell.

Interesting isn't it?

There are connections that can be made between many faiths, indeed, because most faiths share more in common than they do different. We have a few certain truths that we hold to be self evident? That some right an unalienable? Etc. Its true.

Again, the reason that I find the Norse idea less than likely to be the source is because of simple geography. How this would squeak through the Roman Empire at its height and be accepted by a Roman population .... just does not seem terribly likely.

 

It is very unlikely that Iesous actually said this. It is written by Hellenized Christians decades after Iesous' death.

We are told Iesous learned and taught in the Temple - and the Hebrew would not have taught this.

They had no "hell" or devil demon character. That comes from pagan Roman contact.

They had only Sheol - which is where ALL the dead went to await final judgement. After Final Judgement the evil cease to exist in the consuming fire.

And Sa' atan was an agent of God - doing his job - testing people - and if they failed the tests - he stood beside God to present the case against them.

There is actually NO Old Testament story saying Sa' atan "fell" - that was actually about a Babylonian Prince.

 

Well, loads of speculation, obviously, anything that is remotely similiar to Christianity obviously caused it to be there, even Babylonian Princes. No need to support anything whatsoever.

The story fo Satan is not in the OT, where evil is simply mentioned as teh bringer of the death. It is a NT story, and it is one that is necssary for all manner of Christian Constructs.

What happens after we die?

Why are we here?

Where does Sin come from?

Where do Angles come from?

Is there free will?

Revelations makes no sense at all without the devil.

Course the entire concept is just stolen, because somewhere there are similarities with something else - therefore OBVIOUSLY stolen. I mean there is no way that people in Asia dreamt up tha lying was bad, so clearly Buddhis stole the idea that lying was bad from ancient Pagan religions in Europe.

Oter than making stuff up about orgins of Satan and Hell, what does any of that have to do with the construct of hell and how this aspect of Christianity specifically targets poor, innocent atheists?

Apparently, the idea is all over the place and MERELY a baroowed concept form something quite common. So why all the fuss from atheists about a concept that is common?

 

Both Revelation and the Devil are Hellenized Christian thought - not OT.

Isa 14:4 And thou take up this adage against/concerning the King of Babylon, and say thus, O how failed the Tyrannizer/Oppressor; failed the Golden City.

Babylon was called the Golden City.

Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

Isa 14:11 Thus decends to Sheol thy pomp/pride, and the noise of thy psaltries; and for thee below, a bed of worms and a coverlet of maggots.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from a great hight, O Heylel, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend unto (the hights), I will exalt my throne above the "princes" of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (Mount Moriah)

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; a carcass trodden under feet.

 

Well, perhaps you should read what several posters have said on the subject. Hell is not in the OT, indeed 'Satan' as it were, is referred to merely as the bringer of death and not as the personified Satan of the New testament.

I am glad that you are still using a proximity search on the Bible, but nothing you wrote makes any kind of tangible link to the origins of the concept of Satan as orginating and being stolen whole sale from Roman Mythology.

In fact, if you read the history of Bibical Creation, particuarly Paul, then you know, as you should given the evengelical concept of Christianity, that the intent is not for a single chosen people of Israel, but of God's word going to all people.

Now, what is the language of the ancient world? Particularly the educated? Greek (you know, Hellenistic). Ergo, most of the early transcripts of the Bible are in Greek, with some being in Hebrew for local considerations. None of that points to the whole sale adoption of one religion by the other, nor, even if that were the case, does it have any bearing on whether it is accurate depiction of Satan.

Most specifically, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether of not Christians created Satan and the concpet of Hell just so we could make atheists feel bad. Such concepts are silly.

For the record, it is also quite silly, given that most religions agree with one another more often than not, than taking a over simplistic calender approach and assuming that whichever one thought up anything even remotely siiliar must be the point of orgin for all others.

The concept of unalienable rights emeregs not because someone, some one person mind you, thought them up and sold them to the masses, but because, acriss culture, religion, geography, there are and have bee throughout human history certain moral and ethical states that are proven to be beneficial.

It'd be nice to see one of those so concerned about the (*)(*)(*)(*)ation of Hell and how it make sthem feel bad, do something besides speculate about how our religion is not actually our religion.

Satan is real, exactly for the reason the OP states - Jesus says so.

 

Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

18 was bothering me - as they would not have been lying out in the house - they had a strict burial code.

So I translated it.

Isa 14:18 All the Kings of the nations, every one, lies in honor in his family vault.

 

You do realize that Isiah 14 is talking about the relief from the Babylonians?

 

Ingledsva - I don't have to look up anything! It is very obviously talking about a HUMAN King of Babylon!

LOL! And what is your point here? This text "IS" about an ancient Babylonian King and ANCIENT rulers. All of them HUMAN!

LOL! No it isn't.

LOL! NO! I'm pointing out AGAIN that they call him A MAN - no demon here!

LOL! NO! AGAIN! It shows this is a HUMAN - not a devil! LOL!

LOL! I've already said that. No hell in the OT - only Sheol - which is where ALL the dead go to await final judgement!

LOL! Do you think if you keep repeating that it will become true?

I TRANSLATED the majority of that text. Not translating only the unimportant lines. LOL! But 18 was bothering me so I decided to translate it too.

LOL! There is no HELL or "DEVIL/LUCIFER." No such evil being in the OT!

Sa'atan IS in the OT - and is a servant of God - doing God's will! His job is to TEST people - and if they are found wanting - he stands beside God at Judgement to condemn them!

And how does that have anything to do with the subject?

LOL! Many ancient languages were spoken!

The reason the LATER NT texts are in Greek is because the Hebrew in those areas became Hellenized - spoke Greek - and wrote the New Testament in Greek - starting it - DECADES AFTER - Iesous' death.

And again - we are not talking about the Hebrew Sa'atan! We are talking about the Hellenized PAGAN HELL and LUCIFER/DEVIL ideas being tacked ONTO the Hebrew Sa'atan!

My you did become confused - Sa'atan is Hebrew. Lucifer/Devil and Hell are later Hellenized tack ons!

And they definitely used them to make people feel bad - and FEAR!

What are you talking about? We are not talking about the Hebrew and later Christians comming up with similar concepts! We are talking about the later Christians CHANGING the HEBREW concepts of Sa'atan and Sheol!

They turned them into Hellenized PAGAN concepts!

What has this got to do with the topic?

LOL! It is funny how you always add in crap that was never said - such as where did that - "Hell and how it make sthem feel bad" - come from?

OH AND - don't EVER chop up my text again - by inserting your answers into them - causing it to take twice as long to answer!

Put your answers UNDER the text - as per normal!!!

 

LOL! No it doesn't!

To LIE IN GLORY/HONOR - means to LIE IN STATE.

And the next sentence makes that very clear - as the King Hylel has no grave!

Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

Isa 14:19 BUT thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; a carcass trodden under feet.

 

No, but heaven is when David alludes to it by the hope he would someday be reunited with his dead son.

This shows rank ignorance of the Bible. The New Testament is not separate from the Old, and in fact the dozens of Messianic prophesies in the Old Testament were used persuasively by Christians to convince other Jews that Jesus is Messiah. The prophesies in Matthew 24 and in Revelation use specific Old Testament metaphorical language. Trying to drive a wedge between Old and New Testament is to completely miss the entire point of the Bible.

Satan ruling over hell is a folk lore myth. Even in Dante's vision of hell, the devil is at the center of hell not ruling over it but encased in it by frozen immobility. Hell is alluded to by Jesus as meting out punishments in accordance to people's works and culpability. Lucifer and the angels who followed will receive the worst that hell has to offer. As Scripture says that God "spared not the angels that sinned but reserved them in everlasting chains until the judgement." The demons will suffer like no other in hell and they will rule nothing.

This is a common fallacy amongst the ignorant; looking for historical precident to create an impression while ignoring the order of who borrowed from who. In fact, several religions and mythological systems borrowed heavily from Christianity, not the other way around. The Golden Age of Man and Pandora's Box was borrowed from the Genesis story of the fall, for instance. Several pagan manifestations of Madonna and Child were borrowed from the Virgin Mary and infant Jesus, not the other way around. Christianity's cultural impact and pervasiveness overwhelmed even the pagan world so that they absorbed Christian themes. It wasn't Christianity that absorbed pagan themes.

That is flat out ridiculous. The gospels were written with no mention of the most clamatic event of that era, the destruction of Jerusalem, because it hadn't happened yet. Two books, Luke and the Acts of the Apostles were written to Theophilus, a contemporary of the Apostolic age. John wrote both the gospel and Revelation, both books were bereft of any mention of Jerusalem's destruction. The veracity of the gospel accounts and the rest of Scripture is stronger than that of any other literary work in human history, substantiated by countless secondary works. Of all literary creations in history, nothing even comes close.

 

God commanded that little children be murdered, and abortion. Perhaps the Dems are just doing what the God of the Bible commands ?

 

Are you reading anything that anyone else writes?

#1 - SEVERAL posters have said that hell is not in the OT, indeed that Satan, as he is described in the NT, is a disembodied figure known as the bringer of death.

#2 - SEVERAL posters, indeed atheist, have repeatedly whined about how hell singles them out - as they are otherwise are such good people who never, ever sin at all.

#3 - YOU jumped into the debate with a bunch of silly claims about the origins of Hell and Satan in Hellenic conspiracy theory, and then quoted Babylonian slavery (from the OT) to some justify Lucifer being a Babylonian Prince? Clearly, the text of Isaiah 14 does not indicate this in the slightest - particularly because Isaiah is in the OLD TESTAMENT.

In short, you appear to be sharing with us a creative writing narrative about what you imagined the origins of the New Testament to be.

#4 - Do not tell me how to respond to things. You control you, I control me. I suggest you respect those boundaries.

 

Here is the ENTIRE Chapter from Isaiah 14:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+14&version=NIV

"On the day the LORD gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" (Isaiah 14:3)

The context is QUITE clear.

This is what happens when self declared experts use a proximity search and fail to read the two page chapter to make sure they are quoting the intent correctly.

Babylon was a real Empire BTW.

 

I don't believe in heaven or hell, but leave Jesus alone. The hell he spoke of was for people who think its ok to be cruel and evil to others in a way that is alright with god. According to Jesus we will be punished for our desire to hurt others even if we follow all the right rituals. I think he had a point.