Ronstar - as I've told you before nothing is ever as simple as the simple-minded can be made to believe; THe letter to Nehru was in 1947 but by 1948 after Deir Yassin his views changed . May I suggest that you do some more reading here : Einstein publicly stated reservations about the proposal to partition the British Mandate of Palestine into independent Arab and Jewish countries. In a 1938 speech, "Our Debt to Zionism", he said: "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. That was according to Benny Morris ( Einstein's other theory In 1947 Zionist leaders asked Albert Einstein to work a miracle and persuade a sceptical India to support the birth of a Jewish state. His fascinating correspondence with Jawaharlal Nehru has recently surfaced in Israeli archives. Benny Morris analyses their exchange ===== The Zionists made one last effort to "turn" Nehru, in a last-minute cable from Weizmann, two days before the general assembly vote. "Cannot understand how India can wish [to] obstruct such [a fair partition] settlement," he wrote. But it was no use. On November 29 India voted with the Muslim states against partition. (The Zionists needed, and won, a two-thirds majority: the vote was 33 for and 13 against, with 10 states - including the UK - abstaining.) Nehru greatly admired Einstein, as a humanist and scientist. The two men met, I believe for the only time, on November 5 1949, in Einstein's rooms in Princeton. It was Nehru's only "private" meeting during his trip to the United States. The Guardian, Wednesday 16 February 2005 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/feb/16/israel.india
Quotes : “It would be my greatest sadness to see Zionists (Jews) do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews.” ― Albert Einstein “Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs... Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” ― Mahatma Gandhi
No, it was not "and then" - Gandhi's statement was in 1938 , he was assassinated 10 years later Jan 1948 . He was against a Pro-Hindu state He was assassinated by a Hindu fanatic who rejected Gandhi's notions that Muslims and Hindus were equal. Gandhi was against partitioning of India + British colonial divide and rule policies., ===== Gandhi's major statement on the Palestine and the Jewish question came forth in his widely circulated editorial in the Harijan of 11 November 1938, a time when intense struggle between the Palestinian Arabs and the immigrant Jews had been on the anvil in Palestine. His views came in the context of severe pressure on him, especially from the Zionist quarters, to issue a statement on the problem. === The Jewish leaders were keen to get an approval for Zionism from Gandhi as his international fame as the leader of a non-violent national struggle against imperialism would provide great impetus for the Jewish cause. But his position was one of total disapproval of the Zionist project both for political and religious reasons. He was against the attempts of the British mandatory Government in Palestine toeing the Zionist line of imposing itself on the Palestinians in the name of establishing a Jewish national home. Gandhi's Harijan editorial is an emphatic assertion of the rights of the Arabs in Palestine. Gandhi's response to Zionism and the Palestine question contains different layers of meaning, ranging from an ethical position to political realism. What is interesting is that Gandhi, who firmly believed in the inseparability of religion and politics, had been consistently and vehemently rejecting the cultural and religious nationalism of the Zionists. http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/0815-GandhiZionism.html ==== The more I read the more it looks like , Einstein became disillusioned with Zionists after 1947-48 the criminal acts of Zionists terrorists gangs. Had he lived longer I very much doubt he'd have wished to be associated with present day Israel + the likes of Begin/Shamir/Sharon/ Netyahu/ Avig Lieberman and the Zionists land thieving Settlers.
Einstein also thought the definition of "insanity" was repeating the same behaviors and expecting a different result. which is ofcourse total nonesense.
Ghandi said to the Arabs: "Message to the Arabs, by Gandhi - From The Hindu (May 1, 1947) The Jews are a persecuted people worthy of world sympathy and India sympathises with them. They are energetic, intelligent and progressive. The Arabs are a great people with a great history and therefore if they provide refuge for the Jews without the mediation of any nation, it will be in their tradition of generosity."
Did you watch yourself in the mirror lately? Did you tape yourself? To defame Israel by calling it all kind of atrocious names, to calumniate it with your duplicitous, monotonous, scared ideals, is not Jewish, we JEWS stand erect and face reality and fight, fight, fight back... A boor cannot know nor can a fool understand this, that when the wicked bloom like grass and all doers of inequity blossom, is to destroy themtill eternity (Psalm 92:7)
As a matter of fact, Arabs was at first - generally friendly towards European AshkeNazi Jews, who they mistakenly believed to be their cousins, until they learnt that Zionists Jews had plans which posed an existential plan against Palestinians, a pland to dispossees / displace the indigenous non-Jews to create Herzl;s heretical /racist "Der Judenstaat"
Did you know that Harzl was actually against Judaism and encouraged Jews to become assimilated with the European people and culture?
I think Herzl believed they needed a Jewish State.. and a secular one. He and his family had no end of tragedy and loss. http://isreview.org/issues/24/hidden_history.shtml The roots of Zionism Zionism is not a "two thousand year old yearning," but a modern movement that was born in the last quarter of the 19th century. The development of Zionism as a political movement was entirely a product of European society in the age of imperialism and it is impossible to understand outside of this context. Zionism was one response–the nationalist response–of a section of Jews to the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe. Modern Jewish history begins with the French Revolution. In the wake of its revolutionary ideals of "liberty, equality and brotherhood," Jews won emancipation throughout Western Europe. The old ghetto walls were torn down. Jews gained new civil rights, and were able to join professions that had been closed to them for generations. The vast majority of European Jews welcomed emancipation. They wanted to be able to assimilate and participate as equal members in society. But emancipation never reached Eastern Europe, where the majority of the world’s Jewish population lived. In the Tsarist Empire, Jews lived in poverty and isolation, confined to industrially undeveloped areas in Poland and the Ukraine called the Pale of Settlement. There was no heavy industry in the Pale so most Jews worked in small shops or were part of the permanently unemployed. Life in the Pale was punctuated by the bloody pogroms–violent race riots against Jewish communities that were stoked by government officials and local police. The Russian revolutionary Leon Trotsky described the pogroms of 1905: A hundred of Russia’s towns and townlets were transformed into hells. A veil of smoke was drawn across the sun. Fires devoured entire streets with their houses and inhabitants. This was the old order’s revenge for its humiliation….4 Everyone knows about a coming pogrom in advance. Pogrom proclamations are distributed, bloodthirsty articles come out in the official Provincial Gazettes, sometimes a special newspaper begins to appear.… To start with, a few windows are smashed, a few passers-by beaten up; the wreckers enter every tavern on their way and drink, drink, drink. The band never stops playing "God Save the Tsar," that hymn of the pogroms…. Patrols armed with police revolvers make sure that the anger of the crowd is not paralyzed by fear… If any resistance is offered, regular troops come to the rescue. With two or three volleys they shoot down the resisters or render them powerless by not allowing them within range. Protected in the front and rear by army patrols, with a cossack detachment for reconnaissance, with policemen and professional provocateurs as leaders, with mercenaries filling the secondary roles, with volunteers out for easy profit, the gang rushes through the town, drunk on vodka and the smell of blood.…
Yes I did know abt Herzl being an atheist - hence his inclusion with other heretical (godless ) Zionists Jews. ----- Have you heard the saying about the dangers of a little knowledge ? Yes , but he later rejected his early ideas regarding Jewish emancipation and assimilation and to believe that the Jews must remove themselves from Europe and create their own state. Why else would he have written Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). subtitled "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage", ("Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question"). Der Judenstaat proposed the structure and beliefs of what political Zionism was. Read and learn : Herzl and his ideas were vilified by establishment Jewry, whose followers perceived his ideas both as threatening their efforts toward acceptance and integration in their resident countries and as rebellion against the will of God. In Der Judenstaat he writes: The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countriessee, for instance, Franceso long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level. The unfortunate Jews are now carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America. ==== "In Constantinople, Ottoman Empire, June 15, 1896 Herzl saw an opportunity. With the assistance of Count Filip Michał Newleński (Philip Michael Nevlenski), a sympathetic Polish émigré with political contacts in the Ottoman Court, Herzl attempted to meet Sultan Abdulhamid II in order to present his solution of a Jewish State to the Sultan directly. He failed to obtain an audience but did succeed in visiting a number of highly placed individuals, including the Grand Vizier, who received him as a journalist representing the Neue Freie Presse. Herzl presented his proposal to the Grand Vizier: the Jews would pay the Turkish foreign debt and attempt to help regulate Turkish finances if they were given Palestine as a Jewish homeland under Turkish rule. Prior to leaving Constantinople, June 29, 1896, Newleński obtained for Herzl a symbolic medal of honor. The medal, the "Commander's Cross of the Order of the Medjidie", was a public relations affirmation for Herzl and the Jewish world of the seriousness of the negotiations. Five years later, May 17, 1901, Herzl did meet with Sultan Abdulhamid II, - the Sultan refused Theodor Herzl's offer to consolidate the Ottoman debt in exchange for a charter allowing the Zionists access to Palestine[ Returning from Constantinople, Herzl traveled to London to report back to the Maccabeans, a proto-Zionist group of established English Jews led by Colonel Albert Goldsmid. In November 1895 they received him with curiosity, indifference and coldness. Israel Zangwill bitterly opposed Herzl, but after Constantinople Goldsmid agreed to support Herzl. In London's East End, a community of primarily Yiddish speaking recent Eastern European Jewish immigrants, Herzl addressed a mass rally of thousands on July 12, 1896 and was received with acclaim. They granted Herzl the mandate of leadership for Zionism. Within six months this mandate had been expanded throughout Zionist Jewry. The Zionist movement grew rapidly. . Herzl visited Jerusalem for the first time in October 1898.[ He deliberately coordinated his visit with that of Wilhelm II to secure what he thought had been prearranged with the aid of Rev. William Hechler, public world power recognition of himself and Zionism.[22] Herzl and Wilhelm II first met publicly on October 29, at Mikveh Israel, near present-day Holon. It was a brief but historic meeting.[15] He had a second formal, public audience with the emperor at the latter's tent camp on Street of the Prophets in Jerusalem on November 2, 1898 In 190203, Herzl was invited to give evidence before the British Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. His appearance brought him into close contact with members of the British government, particularly with Joseph Chamberlain, then secretary of state for the colonies, through whom he negotiated with the Egyptian government for a charter for the settlement of the Jews in Al 'Arish in the Sinai Peninsula, adjoining southern Palestine. In 190203, Herzl was invited to give evidence before the British Royal Commission on Alien Immigration. His appearance brought him into close contact with members of the British government, particularly with Joseph Chamberlain, then secretary of state for the colonies, through whom he negotiated with the Egyptian government for a charter for the settlement of the Jews in Al 'Arish in the Sinai Peninsula, adjoining southern Palestine. In 1903, Herzl attempted to obtain support for the Jewish homeland from Pope Pius X. Cardinal Rafael Merry del Val explained to him the Church's policy of non possumus on such matters, saying that as long as the Jews denied the divinity of Christ, the Church could not make a declaration in their favor.[ After the failure of that scheme, which took him to Cairo, he received, through L. J. Greenberg, an offer (August 1903) from the British government to facilitate a large Jewish settlement, with autonomous government and under British suzerainty, in British East Africa. At the same time, the Zionist movement was threatened by the Russian government. He accordingly visited St. Petersburg and was received by Sergei Witte, then finance minister, and Viacheslav Plehve, minister of the interior, the latter placing on record the attitude of his government toward the Zionist movement. On that occasion Herzl submitted proposals for the amelioration of the Jewish position in Russia. He published the Russian statement, and brought the British offer, commonly known as the "Uganda Project", before the Sixth Zionist Congress (Basel, August 1903), carrying the majority (295:178, 98 abstentions) with him on the question of investigating this offer, after the Russian delegation stormed outHerzl did not live to see the rejection of the Uganda plan. source wiki.
THanks Margot - I found this extract also worth posting : Zionism and imperialism To acquire the land for his state, Herzl was willing to beg from the table of every imperialist power, no matter how criminal. He courted them all–the German Kaiser, the Turks, the Russian Tsar, and the British Empire. In 1896, Herzl entered into negotiations with the Turkish Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, which had ruled over Palestine for more than five hundred years. Herzl offered the Sultan a deal–in exchange for giving Palestine to the Jews, the Zionist movement would help soften world condemnation of Turkey for its genocidal campaign against the Armenians. He even pledged to meet with Armenian leaders to convince them to call off their resistance struggle! In his diary, Herzl wrote, [The Sultan] could and would receive me as a friend–after I had rendered him a service.… For one thing I am to influence the European press…to handle the Armenian question in a spirit more friendly to the Turks: for another, I am to induce the Armenian leaders directly to submit to him, whereupon he will make all sorts of concessions to them.… I immediately told [Hamid’s agent] that I was ready a me mettre en campagne [to start my campaign. As it turned out, the Sultan rejected the offer. But as historian Lenni Brenner notes, "It would have occurred to no one else in the broad Jewish world to have tried to hinder or interfere with the Armenians in their struggle; nor would anyone have thought to support Turkey in any of its wars, and in the end Zionism gained nothing by its actions. But what was demonstrated, early in its history, was that there were no criteria of ordinary humanism that the World Zionist Organization considered itself bound to respect." -- Herzl never met a butcher he didn’t like, even if they were guilty of slaughtering Jews. In 1903, he went to the Russian Tsar to see if he could convince Russia to pressure the Ottomans into handing over Palestine. In an infamous meeting, Herzl actually sat down with Count von Plehve, the organizer of the pogroms, the butcher of Jews. Herzl argued with von Plehve that Zionism was the solution to Russia’s "Jewish problem," namely, the enormous number of Jews who were flooding into revolutionary organizations. Herzl later recalled that he told von Plehve "Help me reach land sooner and the revolt will end. And so will the defection to the socialists." Herzl kept his end of the bargain. A member of the Russian Social Revolutionary party, Chaim Zhitlovsky, recalled what Hertzl told him soon after the meeting: "I have just come from Plehve. I have his positive, binding promise that in 15 years, at the maximum, he will effectuate for us a charter for Palestine. But this is tied to one condition: the Jewish revolutionaries shall cease their struggle against the Russian government. If in 15 years from the time of the agreement Plehve does not effectuate the charter, they become free again to do what they consider necessary. Zhitlovsky gave a brilliant response that epitomizes the revolutionary socialist position on Zionism. He told Herzl, "We Jewish revolutionaries, even the most national among us, are not Zionists, and do not believe that Zionism is able to resolve our problem. To transfer the Jewish people from Russia to Eretz-Israel is, in our eyes, a utopia, and because a utopia, we will not renounce the paths upon which we have embarked–the path of revolutionary struggle against the Russian government, which should also lead to the freedom of the Jewish people… . The situation of Zionism is already dubious enough by the very fact of its standing aloof from the revolution. Its situation in Jewish life would become impossible if it could be shown that it undertakes positive steps to damage the Jewish revolutionary struggle. Herzl’s meeting with von Plehve turned out to be a tactical disaster, alienating the very Russian Jews he was trying to recruit to the movement. Chaim Weizmann, president of the World Zionist Organization, later wrote "I…believed that the step was not only humiliating, but utterly pointless.… Nothing came, naturally, of Herzl’s ‘cordial’ conversations with von Plehve, nothing, that is, except disillusionment and deeper despair, and a deeper division between the Zionists and the revolutionaries."18 Weizmann wrote to Herzl with alarm, ---"In general West European Jewry thinks that the majority of East European Jewish youth belongs to the Zionist camp. Unfortunately, the contrary is true. The lions-share of the youth is anti-Zionist, not from an assimilationist point of view as in West Europe, but rather as a result of their revolutionary mood. It is impossible to describe how many became the victims of police oppression because of membership in the Jewish Social Democracy–they are sent to jail and left to rot in Siberia; 5,000 are under state surveillance…and I am not speaking only of the youth of the proletariat.… Almost the entire Jewish student body stands firmly behind the revolutionary camp…and all this is accompanied by a distaste for Jewish nationalism which borders on self-hatred." ==== - - - Updated - - -
I know all of this, dont worry. Harzl decided about the Jewish state because what happened with Dreyfus, and after his trail Harzl decided that the Jews need to have their own state and escape from the anti-Semitism that was in Europe, but Harzl wanted that the Jewish state will not be so much Jewish but to be a part Europe and European culture. Harzl wanted a Jewish state just because of the anti-Semitism that was in Europe and not because that the Jews will have a place that they could be Jews. All the actions that Harzl done, I know all about it, i dont need to hear it from non-reliable source. And here is a tip to you- Wikipedia is not a reliable source for history lessons.
I agree - wiki is regularly edited by Israel's Hasbarists . see http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=332625 I quoted wiki as most of the references concerning Herzl was from Jewish sources> tata .. b
Stuntman re wiki - please also see this : http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=328738 ----tata .. ,
I didnt say that what you wrote on your comment was from Wikipedia. If you know that Wikipedia is not reliable so why you bring to this forum on your comments information that you brought from Wikipedia? Thats why I dont like to use Wikipedia and to see people using Wikipedia while they want to discuss about history. I asked you this cause it looked like your comment that i qouted for asking you my question was actually to let people know that Harzl was anti- semite against the Arabs while he was actually against Judaism and a state where Jews can be Jews, herzl didnt want it.
Yes. Herzl did.. Why don't you actually READ how he tried to set it up. The information is NOT from Wiki.
if it wasn't for obsessive hatred of the Jews, Zionism would have never existed. if the Christian Europeans had just accepted or even just tolerated their Jewish neighbors, Zionism would have never happened.
Why arent you READING what I write? I never said that Herzl didnt halped the Jewish state to be astablished or helped Jews come up to Israel, I just say that Herzl never wanted a Jewish state for the Judaism, He actually wanted a Jewish state that it will be a place for anti-semitism actions will not take place against the Jews but still will be a place that will be part of the European culture and European state of mind. That is a fact. If you dont know that read again about Herzl. Do you read what i wrote to you? Herzl never wanted a Jewish state for Judaism to take place, he wanted a Jewish state that will be part of Europe and to have a European culture and all that, he wanted that the Jewish state will not be a religious state but a seculer state. Even back then there was a lot of Christian European and Americans that tolerated Jews and what they stend for, yes you had some Christian goups that did actions against the Jews but not all of the Christian were like that, and still you have today Zionism.
