Today, 135 years since the birth of Joseph Stalin.

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Destroyer of illusions, Dec 21, 2014.

  1. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    8,395
    Likes Received:
    2,563
    Trophy Points:
    113
  2. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,489
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So now you compare a killer like Stalin to a book? LOL
     
  3. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,489
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Depends on the American. Older Jewish Americans have not forgotten since many of their relatives are gone forever.
     
  4. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    16,248
    Likes Received:
    3,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Stalin was certainly smart, but the greatest mass murderer of all history, and the abusive state he created did not last very long. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, all cut from the same cloth.
     
  5. Borat

    Borat Banned

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    23,909
    Likes Received:
    9,859
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Cunning, manipulative, backstabbing, disloyal, ruthless describe him much more accurately. A smart man would not have destroyed his entire military when WWII was already raging in Europe.

    .
     
  6. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    37,493
    Likes Received:
    3,320
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, the the characters in said books, who millions of people (insanely) believe to be good role models today. Can we agree that those 3 mass-murderers I mentioned are not good role models for today?
     
  7. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    16,248
    Likes Received:
    3,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thats in a way funny, trying to determine which if the 2 most evil people in history was "better".
     
  8. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,489
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So the murderer Stalin you think is a good role model eh?
     
  9. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    37,493
    Likes Received:
    3,320
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course not, I just think that Mohammad, Moses, and Elijah should be put in the same category as Stalin and other mass-murderers, based on them killing all the people that they could (in the example I cited.) For example, Elijah allegedly killed ALL 450 "prophets" of Baal....had there been 20 million (like Stalin's total, apparently), I'm thinking that Elijah would have had them (all) killed as well. So the Bible is not more moral than Stalin was, and those who support the Bible are not more moral than those who support Stalin, either, by that metric.
     
  10. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The soviet were Germany's ally in 1939 to 1941...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Russia played no role in the defeat of japan.
     
  11. vis

    vis Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    7,043
    Likes Received:
    933
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That is the point. If Russia had not the peace treaty with Germany, no doubt the war stared much earlier for USSR when it was not ready for it.
     
  12. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Told you about it on CNN? Very funny.
     
  13. Kiwi33

    Kiwi33 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2014
    Messages:
    2,695
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You aren't right. The Soviet and American heads and historians declared more than once that without introduction in war of the USSR it would proceed for a long time and would cost in addition several million human lives.
     
  14. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Naturally, the history of the Pacific War for the American reader will include a photo of General MacArthur when he was on the deck of "Missouri" puts his signature under the Act of Japan's surrender, while a similar story for the Soviet reader will show the same scene, but with a general-Lieutenant Kuzma Derevyanko, to sign the act, while MacArthur and all the rest will be in the background.
    To understand, we have to go back for a month with a little back from the events described - at the Potsdam Conference "big three". July 26 Potsdam Declaration United States, Britain and China (Chiang Kai-shek put his signature "by wire") demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan. "Following are our terms. We do not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay ... Otherwise, Japan is waiting for prompt and utter destruction. "Pre-prepared American Declaration in one of the options provided for the signature of Stalin. President Harry S. Truman announced that he was going to Potsdam in order to ensure the participation of the USSR in the war with Japan, but as approach the atomic project to a successful completion - increasing doubts about the need to share with "Uncle Joe" laurels of the winner.
    Potsdam Declaration in the form in which it was adopted and published, leave little hope that Japan will agree with it: it says nothing about the fate of the emperor and the political system in Tokyo. Consequently, it unleashes the Americans for the use of nuclear weapons. At the same time she put the Soviet Union before the fact that such an important decision was made without him, and without the ability to influence it.
    Explanation Secretary of State James Byrnes about the fact that Truman did not want to put the Soviet Union in the "embarrassing situation" as a country not at war with Japan, angered Stalin. Yet May 28, 1945, in Moscow discussing Far Eastern affairs with a special White House envoy Harry Hopkins, Stalin said he prefers a compromise peace with Japan on terms of complete destruction of its military capabilities and occupation of the country, but softer than in Germany, explaining that the requirement to make the unconditional surrender - force the Japanese to fight to the end. Stalin said that the Soviet Union will be ready to go to war after August 8 (the army command insisted on a later date to complete the training), and raised the question of participation in the occupation of Japan. Hopkins proposed to present an ultimatum to Tokyo on behalf of the United States and the Soviet Union. Secretary General agreed and advised to put this issue on the agenda of the conference. He even brought with him to Potsdam draft statement of the Four Powers, but his text, sound more gently than the US, and remained unclaimed.
    July 13 the Japanese Ambassador in Moscow Naotake Sato handed Deputy Foreign Minister Solomon Lozovsky text messages the Japanese Emperor, explaining that for his official presentation in Moscow would like to come, former Prime Minister Konoe Fumimaro as special envoy and confidant of the monarch. Here is the translation of this document from the Foreign Policy Archives of the Russian Federation: "His Majesty the Emperor of Japan is deeply concerned about the sufferings and sacrifices of the peoples of all the belligerent countries, increasing day by day as a result of this war, expressing their will to put an end to the war soon. As in the East Asian War US and Britain insist on unconditional surrender, the Empire will have to bring the war to an end, mobilizing all forces and means, for the honor and the existence of the Fatherland. However, as a result of such circumstances inevitably increased bloodshed among the peoples of the two warring parties. His Majesty is extremely concerned about this idea and expresses the hope that for good of humanity in the shortest possible time peace was restored"
    July 18 Lozovskiy response: "The views expressed in the letter of the Emperor of Japan considerations are the overall shape and do not contain any specific proposals. The Soviet government also is unclear, what are the objectives of the mission of Prince Konoe. In view of the above, the Soviet Government sees no possibility to give any definite answer about the mission of Prince Konoe. "Received this polite refusal, Sato immediately sent Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo telegram in which he promptly offered to agree to surrender. Togo resolutely replied that Japan would fight to the last, and told him to get the consent of Moscow to the arrival of the mission Konoe. Fulfilling an order chief, Ambassador July 25 again tried to persuade Lazouski. But it was too late.
    Upon learning of the Potsdam Declaration of radio BBC, Ambassador Sato concluded that without prior notification and consent of the Soviet side the document could not appear. He immediately informed the Foreign Ministry that this is a response to the proposal for the dispatch of the mission Konoe. In Tokyo, reigned confusion. Adopt a declaration did not allow the army. In the newspaper got word mokusatsu - "kill the silence" or "ignore" - which began to determine the position of the Tokyo government.
    August 5 Stalin and Molotov returned to Moscow. August 6, 1945 the first American atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. Truman could not hide his joy and alerted about the incident the whole world. War Minister General of Japan Korechika Anami asked the scientist-physicist with a question that is "atomic bomb". Soviet leaders did not ask such questions. He in Potsdam learned that the US has nuclear weapons, but did not expect such a fast its application. Stalin realized that it was a warning not only to the Japanese, and decided not to procrastinate.
    When the Soviet leadership decided to enter the war against Japan? The political decision was first announced by Stalin - in secret - in October 1943 at the Moscow Conference of Foreign Ministers of the anti-Hitler coalition, but recorded in the minutes at the Tehran Conference "Big Three" in late November - early December of the same year. Japanese about it, of course, did not know. They were comforted by the absence in the Iranian capital of Chiang Kai-shek, which makes the conference the military council against Germany. Similarly, it was interpreted by the lack of Soviet representatives at the Cairo conference, when Roosevelt and Churchill on the way to Tehran met with Chiang Kai-shek. It was there that adopted a declaration demanding the unconditional surrender of Japan, published December 1, 1943.
    Just after midnight on August 9, the Soviet army attacked the Japanese positions in Manchuria and Korea. A few hours later the second American bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. The same evening, a bomb shelter in the palace in Tokyo Imperial Conference was held - Meeting of the monarch, the chairman of the Privy Council, the prime minister, key ministers and chiefs of staff of the army and navy. The question was the same: to accept or not to accept the Potsdam Declaration. Realizing that the war was lost, the emperor resisted unconditional surrender to the last, counting on Moscow's mediation. Now hope was not for that, what the Prime Minister said right Kantarō Suzuki. The resolution prepared by the Foreign Ministry, called for the acceptance of the declaration, "understanding them in the sense that they do not contain requirements to change state laws set the status of the Japanese Emperor." The Supreme Council for the management of war under the pressure of the Minister of War and the Joint Chiefs of Staff agreed to surrender under the following conditions: "1) it does not affect the royal family; 2) Japanese troops outside the country demobilized after their free removal from their territories; 3) war criminals will be subject to the jurisdiction of the Japanese government; 4) will not be implemented in order to guarantee the occupation. "Foreign Minister proposes to limit the first item. The military insisted on all four. The Emperor approved the draft MFA, but Washington rejected it, not wanting to hear about any reservations.
    Only 14 August, the Cabinet was able to work out the text of the rescript of surrender. The emperor decided to appeal to the people on the radio calling "endure the unendurable." On the night of 14 to 15 August, a group of officers garrison tried to revolt, grab the original recording made on the eve, to prevent its broadcast, and destroy "defeatists" from the government. Insurrection failed due to lack of support, and its instigators committed suicide. August 15 Japanese for the first time in history they heard the voice of the monarch. This date is considered in the land of the rising sun during the day the war ended.
    American historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, Japanese by birth, wrote the best at the moment, a comprehensive study of the issue "Racing with the enemy. Stalin, Truman and the surrender of Japan, "published in 2005. His verdict says:" The entry of the USSR into the war shocked the Japanese more than the atomic bomb, because it marked the end of all hope come to an agreement. It has played a greater role than the atomic bombs in forcing Japan to surrender. "
     
  15. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again stupid propaganda. Can you prove it?
     
  16. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You mean Churchill and Roosevelt? Or Churchill and Hitler?

    In the photo the result of Churchill's policy in India. When starved to death 60 million people.
    [​IMG]

    About the labor camps in the United States, in the 30's you probably know.
     
  17. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Remember the Munich Agreement? Remember the cooperation of American industrialists and bankers with Hitler? ...
    However, I learned long ago - to discuss with sectarians impossible. You do not bring any evidence. You just hysterical. .....But the KGB is still watching you.
     
  18. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You can prove it. Or you quote Russophobes of Fox News? Maybe first you read "Eisenhower's death camps"? For comparison.
     
  19. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Have you read "The Gulag Archipelago"? Anyone who has a minimal education, reading "The Gulag Archipelago", understand that the "Star Wars" more realistic. But judging by your comment, I'm sure - you have not read this book. Because,I'm sure - you have a high intelligence. And you will immediately see the folly in this book.
     
  20. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2014
    Messages:
    16,104
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Are you saying that the "Holocaust" is the same fiction as "The Gulag Archipelago"? I do not argue with you. I also think that these are two of the myth in order to deceive the peoples of the planet.
     
  21. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    On the contrary... Hitler would never have attacked France if they didn't had that peace treaty in his pocket insurring a one front war.
     
  22. Korozif

    Korozif Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,055
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Nope. The japanese were already conceding defeat when the russian declared war. They were just trying to waste a bit of time to try to get a few concession from the USA. The war was over when Hiroshima was bombed and the japanese knew it. Beside the russian weren't even ready to do anything against Japan since most of their army was in the west. It would have taken months for Russia to ferry enough troops and tanks to take on the Japanese in china and they didn't have the naval asset to invade mainland Japan in any case.

    - - - Updated - - -

    One man opinon, not a fact make... ~ Yoda
     
  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,464
    Likes Received:
    14,677
    Trophy Points:
    113
    oh, so you're a Holocaust denier too?

    figures.
     
  24. Draco

    Draco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,096
    Likes Received:
    3,393
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting part of your article.....

    "But Putin’s rule, especially since his return to the Kremlin in 2012, as President, has been marked by substantial empowerment of security élites, and a crackdown on free expression. Since early 2013, Memorial has been undermined by continuous government “inspections,” legal claims, and court summons."

    Poor, poor Russia.
     
  25. flogger

    flogger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3,474
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Eh ? And when did that happen ?
     

Share This Page