God works in mysterious ways

Of course you can.................

 

Guess I'd have to have known you as 'you once were' to make a valid comparison <ahem>

 

LOLOL.. I worked six days a week.. 70 hours a week, had three children .. raised two more and made a lot of money at some cost.

God was patient with me.

 

This is a qustion no one can really explain the answer to. Maybe some things are meant to be the way they are for some reason. I don't know, no one ever said god was going to grant world peace and feed everyone.

 

Sounds like you must have worn Him out with His patience!!

 

There is nothing wrong with a person praying as long as it sets the mind on a good path it can be beneficial for ones health.

 

Oh, and what is our young provacteur using to justify his faith that we are all messed up?

It is, in his own opinion, bad form to making judgement with some sort of concrete evidence upon which to base something. Yet he not only studiously avoids ANY of the explanations offered, avoids months of explanations about pain and suffering, entire treatises that deal with the existance of God and the nature of pain and suffering that flow, in order to essentially say, ... "You are a bunch of dicks and so is your God!"

All without anything to back that up other than his silly opinion and obstinate refusal to acknowedge any other point of view but his own.

One standard for us, a different for them - modern atheism.

 

What do you base your belief in god on. There is certainly no proof of that.

 

Oh, I will let you know tonight.

Suffice to say, there is more to proof than science - we convict people all the time.

Now, why do you deny God? Do you have this exacting scientific proof? A test to confirm there is no God? Welcome to the world of faith, only an atheists faith is continual doubt .... and even greater excuses for doubt.

Somehow though, atheists faith is the best faith in the world? Its better to place yourself above all others as an atheist and think you have it all figured out, eh?

Well, good luck with that atheists.

 

I agree with that quote too - that is truth.

 

Wow, some people just can't keep themselves from derailing a whole thread onto the pointless, "God is real!" "No he's not!" debate...jeeze.

 

And what did you think this was about?

There is pain and suffering in the world .... never heard that one before (atheists like to talk about how others are stuck in the past, but you'd think that could come up with a better arguement than Greek Philosophers after thousands of years of trying ... having avoided each rebuttal in the intervening period with a display of sheer obstinancy).

And of course, small things are irrelevant and prove nothing.

Apparently, the rebuttal indicates that we are taking the thread off topic?

 

The purpose of prayer.

We're discussing why some Christians truly believe praying gets them more money, gets them jobs, or makes their favorite sports team win, and gets them other petty things they want but when you have Christian missionaries out and about helping the needy and praying for them it changes nothing because praying that the needy get a new house, a stable job and a hot meal in their stomachs every day simply does not work. (Physically aiding them on that path certainly does though).

That is what we're discussing. In case you missed it most of us have agreed that the purpose of prayer is not for people's wish fulfillment but to become closer to and to commune with their deity. It can also serve other purposes such as giving some a healthy and positive mindset which can lead towards their success in life.

Yes.

So let me ask you Neutral. What do you believe is the purpose of prayer? Or would you rather just discuss whether or not God exists?

 

See that emphasized text above? Well that one statement shows that you have not done a complete and comprehensive study from the Word of God.

"Job 22:27 Thou shalt make thy prayer unto him, and he shall hear thee, and thou shalt pay thy vows.
Job 22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways. "

You cannot stop the Word of God proceeding from one of the Children of God. Neither can you stop that word from accomplishing that which it was sent forth to accomplish.

 

The Bible tells us to pray for all things, both big and small.

What teh atheists are saying is that prayer for small things does not matter, is pointless, and mere coincidence when it happens anyways.

Now tell me, is teh man who spends his time at a job so he can take care of his wife and family, employ other people to allow them to do the same to their family, and prays for wisdom in administration missing the point? Is he just a stodgy old businessman?

How about the warriors among us? Those who believe that defending the innocent, that justice matters, and are driven to the military or police and who pray for wisdom in judgement and execution, and temperance and patience missing the point? WHat if they pray for a few extra bucks at Christmas to help get the kids something a little nicer?

How about the artists among us? Those we have a gift for creativity and pray for inspiration and insight? Who pray that their creations are appreciated and that they bring in enough income that they be able to do what they love? Are they missing the point?

And what of those in need? We are human, and the best part of charity is not just giving - but having the strength to accept help when needed. Have these people, overwhelmed with their problems and seeming selfish have no right to pray for assistance? Or are only the missionaries out helping deseriving of prayer?

Like I said in the beginning, it would be nice if atheists condeming our practices actually referrenced our doctrine or asked us what we though rather than just telling us how stupid they think we are - and presenting it as if it is fact - because haughtiness makes anything factual.

Prayer is for everything. And those prayers that have been answered in my life, those that were answered with the greatest perfection were those where the need (for myself and others) was legitimate. You can pray for a red corvette - good luck. You can pray for the resolution to a problem as you see it, God may see it differently .... and that is the reality of prayer. If we cannot find resolution, then we seek understanding, if we cannot find that, then we seek obiedence.

But the validity of prayer is not found in science - it is found in trust. The bedrock of any relationship, including the ones we have with God.

 

And that is where I believe the supernatural aspect of prayer fails in every aspect. I believe prayer, like meditation, can help to change one's mindset so that they may achieve things in their lives, but I do not believe that by praying to God for 'things' that you will just magically get them.

I tend to agree, unless those small things you pray for will help you change your mindset to get them. But I don't believe God is going to grant you a new iPod just because you prayed for one.

If a man needs to pray for wisdom and praying helps him achieve this mentally then that's great. He's found something that works to help him achieve what he wants in life.

I don't know why anyone would be praying to God about how to execute another human being. I am fairly positive that goes against one of his biggest and most well known commandments and also Jesus's idea that you love your enemy as you love yourself. But hey, if it helps them focus on getting a headshot out there on the battlefield, so be it.

I think it's silly if they pray for money and think they're just going to magically get it. But if the praying helps them to work harder and they get a bigger bonus because of it then that's great. But you and I both know money isn't just magically going to appear in their wallet.

Again, if praying eases their mind and makes the creativity flow then good on them.

Once more, I believe prayer is just a mindset one puts themselves in. If praying helps ease the mind of overwhelming problems and brings peace to them then that is fantastic! A good philosophy to have is to take care of yourself first, because if you're a wreck you probably aren't of a mind to be helping others.

Perhaps the OP could have gone about it in a different way. But you also had the choice to respond in a more positive manner than in a defensive and angry one or simply not to respond at all. Would it be easier for you if you simply put all of us that you despise so much on ignore? I find it's easier for me to have a real conversation with the few I do on here when I do that!

It sounds like it is found more in faith, which is the entire essence of any deity. You must have faith for it to be real to you otherwise it will not work for you. If I pray now for world peace and the end of worldwide poverty I doubt it will happen because I simply do not believe in the supernatural aspect of prayer, in other words I have no faith in it.

I do, however, believe there is a lot of good that can come out of prayer, I really do, I just view it as something that is good psychologically speaking rather than something that is supernatural.

 

I wasn't trying to stop it...?

 

So death only strikes the hungry ? Americans and the rest of the world absorb the stinging death toll of about 54 million a year.

Is food the only thing that the starving kids pray for ? Do Americans always get what they pray for ? There is a whole unseen world filled by assumptions.

I'm assuming those kids are asking for food on a daily basis. There are many Americans praying about life and death situations as well.

 

There is nothing to disprove. The idea of a god is baseless foolishness. The very thought is so ridiculous. People used to believe that gods tossed lightning bolts and all sorts of silly nonsense. What would make your god any different. Just a bunch of mindless twaddle to instill fear in a people that had little knowledge of the workings of nature. The ideas were propagated to control the masses. Pure nonsense.

 

Didn't you just state a few pages back or so that it would be pointless to debate the existence or non-existence of God? So why are you arguing it now?

 

Did you read what was said to me. I responded. I think you make a wonderful thread hall monitor. When someone makes a statement I respond. If you ignore statements that are made to you so be it. I am not rude and reply. If you look over this entire thread you will see that I have responded to others. So in the future if I am replying to a post made directly to me mind your own (*)(*)(*)(*)ing business.

 

It's an open forum. We may respond to whoever we like. If you want a private conversation take it to PMs.

 

And yet, I have had prayers answered in utterly perfect manners. Needs that I could not adaquately express but feel, and were brough to God and answered in time and places that were almost imperctable - and yet, with hindsight were absolutely perfect.

I am not the only one to have a prayer answered.

Scoff if you wish, but your belief that prayer is simple meditation is well wide of the mark. It is primacy, trust. Two points you simply failed to address.

 

Because you say so, eh?

No way that experts simply stating something could ever be wrong, eh?

We all suck! Ergo, no way you coud be wrong, eh?

I see atheists complain about the mindless babble of religion, but all I ever see atheists talk about in terms of science is not just emotional babble, its mean spirited, condescending emotional babble too boot.

Well, have fun with your anger - I am sure it is a far more worth while endeavor than prayer and contemplation.

 

I am not scoffing at you. All I can say is that your experience is not my experience. Perhaps if I had been in your shoes at the time I too would believe, but from my experience prayer does not work that way. Praying never did anything to change the circumstances in my life neither big or small.