Good grief, now you want to dictate what other's selfish interests should or shouldn't be.....have YOU never done anything that was in your selfish interest? most people do. I see you think 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth are no big deal...the pregnant woman just lays around all day on a soft white cloud while a check is delivered to her door everyday. NO. Pregnancy involves pain, permanent damage to a woman's body including possibly death, it includes monetary loss with time off work and YES some women do lose their jobs because they get pregnant. Possibly time lost from schooling. Then there's the doctor's appointments, hospital costs, medications... a BIG expense for many women..9 months of pain and expense..all so she can GIVE AWAY the kid to someone else! Are you nuts?!
I call him a liar because he changed his story. We just don't know which time he lied, but we do know he converted to Catholicism and became a well paid pro-life activist. How are your Russian stats relevant to anything in this thread?
There are millions of already born starving children in the world. Are you sacrificing your body and your time to give them a chance?
OK, finally an answer...ten pages later........took ya long enough... So you ARE saying that people should just stop having sex.... what a ridiculous, impractical idea....
The answer has been there all along, you just couldn't comprehend. When did I say people should stop having sex? You have no idea what you are talking about...
I've never killed an unborn child out of convenience. You're trying to conflate that with non-lethal acts of self-interest, as if it were simply opening an IRA. Quite a narcissistic viewpoint. If she can afford a convenience abortion, I doubt she'll have much difficulty with the copays or enrolling in a low cost community clinic. These are all excuses. Your bottom argument is this: "I'm inconvenienced, I get a ouchies in labor, how dare you!!!" If you can spread your legs, you can accept the risk and act like an adult when it backfires. If you want to argue financial cost, pain, possible lethality and inconvenience, then push for abstinence since those can happen simply by getting an STD and not pregnant. - - - Updated - - - I thought you were against having to deal with potentially painful, lethal, costly consequences? Since sex is not zero-risk, this is what you'd have to advocate. - - - Updated - - - Kill a child here because there's a starving kid in China. Is this a troll post?
No "child" is killed in an abortion. If you feel there is, prove it? But please cut the emotional drama crap and use law and science...facts. Until you can deal in facts your posts are pointless rants.....
Why would ANYONE want to "push abortion"? Support for abortion rights is not the same thing as "pushing abortion." That is something you just made up.
Are you being intentionally obtuse to avoid the question? You seem to think women should sacrifice their bodies and their lives to gestate a child "to give it a chance." Are you sacrificing your life and your time to give a child a chance, like think women should do?
I dunno, why would anyone say abortion is good for society? Why would anyone declare that such a natural thing as childbirth is 'dangerous' and say that unnatural abortion is safer? Why would certain jurisdictions allow minor girls to get secret abortions? I have never threatened to take away your precious right to kill your own offspring either although, I think abortion for convenience is immoral. But then, you don't really care what I think...I guess that's why you keep replying to my posts?
Because banning it is bad for women, their families, and society. Romania's abortion ban taught us that government interference in private decisions such as childbearing represent the epitome of what governments were never meant to be. Because it can result in a multitude of complications, many of them severe and even life threatening. Because numerous studies show it is up to 14 times safer. To save them from abuse in some dysfunctional family relationships. You are anti-abortion and you spread anti-abortion propaganda. There is no such thing as abortion for convenience. That would mean that 9 months of pain and discomfort, limited mobility and freedom, and the trauma of childbirth could be described as a mere "inconvenience." It is so much more than that.
Here, for the uneducated and uninformed (if you disagree feel free to prove otherwise)::: Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy: •exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks) •altered appetite and senses of taste and smell •nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester) •heartburn and indigestion •constipation •weight gain •dizziness and light-headedness •bloating, swelling, fluid retention •hemmorhoids •abdominal cramps •yeast infections •congested, bloody nose •acne and mild skin disorders •skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen) •mild to severe backache and strain •increased headaches •difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping •increased urination and incontinence •bleeding gums •pica •breast pain and discharge •swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain •difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy •inability to take regular medications •shortness of breath •higher blood pressure •hair loss or increased facial/body hair •tendency to anemia •curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities •infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases) •extreme pain on delivery •hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression •continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover) Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy: •stretch marks (worse in younger women) •loose skin •permanent weight gain or redistribution •abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness •pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh) •changes to breasts •increased foot size •varicose veins •scarring from episiotomy or c-section •other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty) •increased proclivity for hemmorhoids •loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis) •higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's •newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates) Occasional complications and side effects: •complications of episiotomy •spousal/partner abuse •hyperemesis gravidarum •temporary and permanent injury to back •severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies) •dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele) •pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies) •eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death) •gestational diabetes •placenta previa •anemia (which can be life-threatening) •thrombocytopenic purpura •severe cramping •embolism (blood clots) •medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby) •diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles •mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication) •serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis) •hormonal imbalance •ectopic pregnancy (risk of death) •broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone") •hemorrhage and •numerous other complications of delivery •refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease •aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures) •severe post-partum depression and psychosis •research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors •research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy •research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease Less common (but serious) complications: •peripartum cardiomyopathy •cardiopulmonary arrest •magnesium toxicity •severe hypoxemia/acidosis •massive embolism •increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction •molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer) •malignant arrhythmia •circulatory collapse •placental abruption •obstetric fistula More permanent side effects: •future infertility •permanent disability •death.
both are good for society, and pregnancy is dangerous and please do post the comments where a pro-choice person has stated that a fetus is not human nor is it life.
Talk about assumptive reasoning, just because someone is involved with abortion it must make them irrelevant In addition to providing abortion counselling and treatment at over 40 centres across England, Wales and Scotland, BPAS also provides emergency contraception, vasectomy and sterilisation, and vasectomy reversal services. BPAS's South London Clinic was one of the first recipients of the Department of Health 'You're Welcome' award in March 2009, for providing high standards of health care to young people. - - - Updated - - - talk about trying to create a strawman argument ..
Do you think if women have knowledge of the risks of pregnancy, they will never have children? Better to keep them in the dark...
Absolute BS so saying something that is a fact is pushing abortion BTW: pregnancy IS a dangerous condition, that is a an accepted fact by the majority of doctors. http://www.acog.org/About-ACOG/News...regnancy-Is-More-Dangerous-Than-Contraception and just who has said that PP is not a provider of abortions, please point them out and I'll be happy, as a pro-choice person, to tell them they are wrong. What has been said and is backed up by the data is that abortion is only 3% of the services offered by PP overall. Then what do you propose? The reality is that your or my morality has absolutely no bearing on abortion and the fact that you wilfully ignore that pro-choice is about allowing the woman to choose to remain pregnant or not and has nothing to do with "pushing" abortion only highlights your own deceitfulness. - - - Updated - - - Absolute pure crap, Sanger would sit very nicely alongside the majority of pro-lifers.
not always, or have you not heard of AI and self-conception. Which has no bearing on the consent to pregnancy. correct, shame that most pro-lifers want to stop state funding of sex education and contraception. correct, and should she contract herpes she has every right to seek treatment for the condition, pregnancy is no different. It is worth repeating that no person is expected to suffer injury due to a risk taken. While the items mentioned all have a place in the debate they are not the main arguments, the main argument is whether a woman consents to have a pregnancy relationship with the fetus, if not then the fetus is imposing upon her without consent and as such she has every right to rectify the situation, it is the same old thing with pro-lifers they want constitutional recognition of the fetus as a person and thus the protections acquired with that status but ignore the restrictions that status also gives .. one such restriction is that one person cannot impose themselves onto another, whether intentionally or not, without consent and as a separate person the fetus MUST gain separate consent to do so .. that is a well documented legal requirement that has been upheld numerous times in various cases. The act of sexual intercourse is NOT what causes pregnancy, that can only occur when a fertilized ovum implants into the uterine wall. Loud and clear thank you. Sorry just because you consider it avoiding responsibility does not make it a fact, the real fact is that a woman who has an abortion may very well be acting responsibly, just not in the way you want to force her to be. I find it disingenuous that pro-lifers can find no fault in people who defend themselves against non-consented injuries yet demean a woman who seeks an abortion and who is doing nothing but defending herself against non-consented injuries. All we hear is this woefully incorrect cry of consent to sex is consent to pregnancy, which has been shot full of holes so many times it is painful to see pro-lifers maintaining this lie, numerous legal decisions have consistently confirmed that consent is not transferable to another party without the agreement of the person who gave the original consent and that implied consent becomes moot the moment a person, by word or action, explicitly says 'no', nor does the element of risk involved mean that a person is bound to suffer injury due to that risk. IF sexual intercourse resulting in pregnancy 100% of the time then pro-lifers may have a point, it doesn't and they don't. That is you opinion and you are perfectly entitled to hold that opinion .. however the reality is very much different.
I used to attempt to debate on these abortion discussions and it really is a complete waste of time... The denial of what an abortion is and what it entails is swept under the rug. Anyone reading this was once a fetus in the womb....whether they were raised by one parent, two parents, a guardian, adopted parents...each and every one of us was carried to term and in fact born. It is a matter of pure random chance any of us were born to a mother who carried us to term rather than intentionally aborted. Granted, many pregnancies end in miscarriage...however abortion is the intentional act of terminating a pregnancy by killing the fetus. Miscarriages are not intentional on behalf of the mother....an abortion is. I can understand, often times the mother is pressured to have an abortion...so the blame is as much on the "father" who may pressure the woman to abort the fetus. 1 in 5 pregnancies end in abortion. Life is literally a roll of the dice...just to be born....you've escaped a 20% of dying, of being killed...intentionally; before uttering your first word. Those defending abortion seem oblivious to this reality as though they are somehow above the fray..they were never carried in the womb, they didn't exist prior to having a sentient thought...they just popped into existence as an adult. They didn't start out as zygote and develop into a fetus...nope...not them. It's sociopathology...all the earmarks are there and frankly...there is no point in arguing or even discussing anything with sociopaths....they are incapable of empathy or seeing a situation outside of their own existence. I've no doubt the same callous disregard for the unborn is extended to full grown adults. To sum up.. You can't argue with crazy.
"""It's sociopathology...all the earmarks are there and frankly...there is no point in arguing or even discussing anything with sociopaths....they are incapable of empathy or seeing a situation outside of their own existence. I've no doubt the same callous disregard for the unborn is extended to full grown adults.""" Perfectly describes Anti-Choicers who have total disregard for women, they are incapable of empathy for women, or seeing a situation outside of their own existence...you're right, sociopaths... There is no point in discussing anything with them as they are incapable of learning.
Some proponents of it were unlucky enough to have a Mom who didn't want them, but was forced to gestate by the fact that abortion was illegal. A fetus is living and human, like sperm and eggs, but not necessarily "a human being." It is not removed from the womb and killed, it simply dies in the process of being removed from the womb. Those who view abortion as a "social good" generally have empathy for women, something that is lacking in the pro-lifers; so are pro-lifers "sociopathic" since they lack empathy? Everyone has self-interest, and if one does not protect that self-interest, s/he will not be able to survive and function in this world much less take care of someone else. Abortion is not murder at all, it is the termination of a pregnancy.
