http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/nice201.htm Good website going into detail explaining the the story of Abraham and his two sons (insider ) Ishmael and Isaac (or, if you are like that, Isaac and Ishmael) and his wives Hagar and Sarah (... Sarah and Hagar...) using both the Bible and Quran.
Yo OJ, the best method of identifying a possible candidate for Abraham is perhaps going to be found in egyptian archeology. ie... from circumcision to the story of moses himself, all from egypt Remember, if moses was raised in the pharoahs house (per torah of course), to learn all that information (he supposedly wrote genesis, etc (torah)), then he learned them lineages from god (pharoah).............. talk to him everyday! Really think about it.................. the lineages, the lessons, the commands, the amount of data learned had to come from a huge library or a bunch of people or even both. kind of like muhammad took 27 yrs (i think) to learn his part and he didnt even read or write a word. think about it look into ahkenatan...... i believe that schism from egypt was him (moses) moving and opening up the temple in amarna and his scribes used akkadian (consonant only language) to write the religion (monotheism) (genesis) that is why he never saw canaan, that is why the initial commands were on tablets, that is why the divide from egypt was such a huge part of judaism (a schism of such would have been huge to egypt) then look up the time periods of both then look of the children of ahkenatan enjoy
and like usual, you do nothing to support or add to a thread............ claim 'supported' OJ is new and conveying his points of view and offering alternatives this forum is not only about the left wing wingnuts..... jumpet elsewhere if you dont like it
Wonderful contribution to follow up Bishadi's post, thank you.... If you even took the time to open the link, you'd notice it's too big for me to just copy/paste it so yeah, I quikcly threw the link up. But if you opened it, then you'd need to think of a way to prove it's wrong and that'd be quite hard for anybody to do. So thank you.
Haha, you see, I knew exactly what you were going to say. This is why the link is the first thing I posted. Read it. You have no reason not to read it, do you?
I don't need to read it. The Abrahamic covenant is found in the Bible. And the Bible is clear that Isaac is the one in whom the Abrahamic Covenant follows. Not Ishmael. Quantrill
Why don't you need to read it? Are you afraid of what you might see? You are further showing your insecurity about your "faith", if something like this gets you so worked up you'll deny it no problem but won't even read what you are denying. It explains one of the major contradictions in the Bible, and I understand if that makes you a bit nervous so you won't read it. Actually, I don't understand. I have srong faith, can read anything about Islam and jump into the Quran right after. Faith. It's a wonderful thing If you don't wish to read the website which this thread is based on, then it'd be foolish to continue replying, because you'd be blind.
No, it doesn't make me nervous at all. The Abrahamic covenant is based on the promises to Abraham as found in the Bible, and then given to Isaac, as found in the Bible. And with this, is the specific rejection of Ishamael as the one in whom the Abrahamic covenant would be found. You want to have faith in the koran, go ahead. But, the Abrahamic covenant is traced through Isaac. That is the teaching of the Bible. Quantrill
The teachings of the Bible which I posted a link to a website using the Bible to show just how wrong you are and how this is a major contradiction in the Bible. God made both Isaac (Israel) and Ishmael (Saudi Arabia) Nations. From Israel came Moses PBUH. Then Jesus PBUH. From Saudi Arabia came Muhammed PBUH. Still blind though. And you can deny it all you want about your weak faith. You still haven't given any reason - let alone an actual good excuse - not to read something. Seeing as the website is "why christians convert to islam" I've come to the conclusion you are insecure and nervous.
Oh yeah, 'using the Bible'. They used it Im sure. No one denies that Ishamael got some land. But that is not the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant. The Bible is clear that Ishmael is rejected. You don't like it, but Ishmael was rejected by God to be the bearer of the promises of the Abrahamic covenant. That is the teaching of the Bible. Would you like me to get you the verses? Quantrill
See, you don't know because you refuse to read the website. You don't understand the topic of this thread because it is based on what's written in the linked website. In other words, you're blind. Ishmael became a Nation because he was also a Promised son by God. The Bible is clear that it contradicts itself on the topic of Ishmael and Isaac. What good are your Bible verses when you refuse to read Bible verses that show your wrong? If you wish to share Bible verses, maybe I should refuse to read them for no reason, and then just say you're wrong. But I'm not that childish. The Bible is full of contradictions on this topic, so go ahead. I can in turn post the responses to the verses from the website, since I'm sure they'll be the same verses Try opening your mind for once. Read something objective about your faith. This is how strengthens their faith Salam
Here is a Christians response to a sample of the website I posted in the begining of the thread. It's asked by a Christian who came upon the very same website, and started thinking. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Bible-Studies-1654/ishmael-issac-1.htm As you can see, it's not a very impressive answer. Why would it be so hard to explain?
Genesis 17:18-19 " And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. " Did you catch that, " I will establish my covenant with him "?
I refuse to read this, because I don't have to. (Yes, I'm not denying Isaac was given a covenant. I'm saying Ishmael was too. But it continues to go over your head. Whoosh.)
It's really disingenuous to use the term Abrahmic anything that is inclusive of Islam. See. Because IShmael did not worship allah. There was no god known as allah. It's my opinion that baal worship was the origin of Islam. and that mohammad is a plagiarist and not a good one at that.
Oh. My. God. This forum never seems to run out of people like this..... I'm not turning this thread into a "My God isn't your God" debate. But, just so you know (which you should of done before posting in a thread don't you think?) Allah is Arabic for God. Since Ishmael was given Arabia, and from Arabia came Mohammed and Islam, the language is Arabic. Islam is the third of the Abrahimic religions. So.... Educate yourself. Please don't tell me this is going to go over your head too......
If Muslims believe that the Jews tampered with scripture, then why are you relying on scripture to prove Ishmael was an inheritor of the covenant?
Well, you can certainlly believe whatever you like. As long as you understand that the Bible says Ishmael was rejected and that God chose Isaac as the one in whom the Abrahamic covenant would be established. Your 'muhammed' can say whatever he likes. But Christians know he is lying. And that the koran is a lie. And that allah is no god. But, you can believe it all you like. Quantrill
That because there are people like you who claim that allah is god. He may be the god of islam. But allah is not God. And he is not the God who wrote the Bible. Quantrill
Well, for starters Quantrill believes only the Bible. That's one of my reasons for making this thread. Because the Christians like this, on this forum who believe only the Bible and that everything else is a complete lie unless it in the Bible might listen if it's if the Bible And secondly, because the Bible contradicts itself. Proving something isn't right with the story.
Thank you for the permission. The Bible doesn't say that Ishmael was rejected, but if it helps you sleep at night, reject away my friend. If you believe contradictions to be truth, then by all means continue believing contradictions. I guess we'll never know until Jesus comes back.
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/nice201.htm A second argument presented is that because Ishmael was born to a handmaid he would qualify as a seed or a descendant of Abraham, but not as a son. This argument is nullified because prevailing Nuzi Laws of marriage (exhibit A) tell us that such marriage contracts were legal in the days of Abraham and the child born of a handmaid or slave-girl would have the same status as one born to the wife, even if the wife had a child of her own later. There can be no doubt concerning the validity of the Nuzi laws of marriage. For example, when one traces the maternal side of the children of Israel, Genesis tells us that Jacob (later called Israel Gen 32:2 had four wives. He married Leah (Gen 29:22-23), Rachel (Gen 29:2, a slave-girl Bilhah (Gen 30:4), and another slave-girl Zilpah (Gen 30:9). From these four wives came the twelve Children of Israel: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Dan, Naptali, Gad and Asher (Gen 35:23-26 & 1 Chronicles 2:1-2). All twelve of these children make up the Israelites and are all referred as a combined group, see (Exodus 1:1-9). Four of the twelve children (Gad, Dan, Naphtali and Asher) were sons of the slave-girls. Thus, it follows that about one third of all Israelis are children of slave-girls! Will a third of all Jews stand up and say they are illegitimate? Moreover, further evidence that the Bible clearly includes the slave-children as part of the combined group of Israelis is the Bible's tracking of their genealogy in (1 Chronicles 5:18; 1 Chronicles 7:12, 13, 30). Moreover, we are told that the children of Asher were leading princes.
Yes, that is right. When it comes to my Christian faith, I believe only the Bible. I understand your need to believe other things than your book, the koran, as it is so unfulfilling and incomplete. But the Christian needs only the Bible. Quantrill
