The concept of grace allows man to seek and pursue a relationship with God, and even be wrong about God. I was an atheist and found truth - did God love me less when I was an atheist? A reminder, no one comes to God based on the Abrahamic Covenant. THey come to God because of his love and wisdom. You are rejecting over a billion people based solely on thei faith, a faith that is errily close to your own save one Prophet. Do you reject Mormonism as well? With such vehemence? And what about Buddhism? Hinduism? These faiths are remarkably different than your own, and yet they recieve barely as much invective as Islam. Once again, I use my life as an example. When I accepted that God was real, I looked at every damb faith out there, and if there were no Christianity, I would be Muslim. I chose Christianity because its message of grace, tolerance, love, compassion, etc. is the strongest, and my final denomination selection was moved by the Holy Spirit. The Arahamic Covenant is not what is central to God. Indeed, it isn't really central to either Christians or Muslims who are simply aware of it.
Your wrong. The grace of God does not allow you to be wrong about God. The grace of God allows you to be forgiven based on the work of God. Not based on the work of another. Well, your telling me you found truth, I am not convinced, when your beliefs are so contrary to the Christian faith. God does not love everyone. Its is up to Him. Really, you are now telling me no one comes to God based on the Abrahamic covenant. Yet you just said God's grace allows for anyone to come anyway they can even if they are wrong. So what you are really sayig is that the Bibles teaching of how to come to God is what is wrong and all others are right. You need to identify with another religion than Christianity. I am not rejecting, God is rejecting. Any way that does not see Jesus Christ as the Son of the living God and as the Saviour of mankind is false. It is a lie. You came to a religion. You didn't come to Jesus Christ. You would be better off identifying with your islam, and muslim brothers. You are mistaken. The Abrahamic covenant is central to God. There is only one individual more important in Scripture than Abraham, and that is Jesus Christ. Quantrill
I don't believe you. Remember? You told me that you lie when it is expedient. And I have seen that islam teaches its ok to lie, when its expedient. Thats the trouble with being a liar. Nothing you say has credibility, even if your telling the truth. You can't be trusted. Quantrill
Ishmeal was a child of the flesh outside of the promise of God, and Hagar was the servant of Sari to bear a child for her. Hagar was not a wife. Issac is the child of promise, concieved in the old age and beyond Sari's ability to bear. But yet she did. A miracle appropriate of the child of promise.
Wife in that Abraham was hitting it, not in actuality as Hagar was a slave of Sari. Hagar was not a part of God's promise, Sari was.
Quant, I disagree. What I see is something that I have seen in many Church's before I turned to God and asked him where I should go. I have seen churches dissolve based on a disagreement as to whether instruments should be added to hymns. Does that strike you as central to God? I have seen pastors implode because they wanted to foust a norrow definition of about something like transubstantiation onto a diverse body of worshippers. Is that what God is about? There is an important part of the covenant that you are missing BTW: To make Abraham a father of many nations and of many descendants and the land of Canaan as well as the entire middle-east to his descendant. Did that not come to pass? Or all they all commanded to be under the house of Israel as Jews? We are no longer in the time of the earliest part of the Old Testament. The Abrhamic Covenant has been met by God, and Jesus comes along and, with Abraham's sires spread throughout the world, brings his message of grace and atonement to THE ENTIRE world. Again, my life is a testament to Christianity's power. Christianity sells itself. I didn't even know what the Abrahamic Covenant was when I first joined the church. I knew the message of Jesus, of grace, forgiveness, kindness, saw truth in his wisdom and was shocked to discover a warm and loving God who had been waiting for me the entire time. The Old Testament approached God as a set of rules, increasingly structured and cohersive upon whose adherence was based 'God'. God commandments are few, and when he offers guidance, he offers it in manners that reinforce his principles. We should recreate the errors of the Old Testament and ignore grace, compassion, and kindness simply because a relatively obscure blood line, one that Islam traces itself into BTW, in order to malign over a billion people. There are many, many, many good Muslims. Kind, honorable, compassionate, and if I know anything, I know that Jesus would be among them, and love them just as he did sinners in his day. Christianity is in no danger from Islam - or any other religion, even atheism. It literally sells itself - if you can get people to actually read it that is
According to the Torah, Hagar was a princess of Egypt.. a daughter of Pharaoh.. and given to Abraham after Sara was a member of Pharaoh's harem. According to Nuzi law she and her offspring were entitled to ALL rights and privileges bestowed by Abraham. Education is a good thing.
That is contrary to scripture which has pre-eminance in both authority and spiritual truth. Ishmael is described as a wild man whose hand would be against every man. That is certainly the truth, if he was the father of modern Arabs who invented the evil murderous religion of Islam.
Chruches need to divide once false doctrine enters. Unity for the sake of unity is useless. Unity based on the truth is effective. Once some start to vary from the truth, they need to be corrected or leave. Abraham is not the father of the entire middle east. Of some, yes. But the Abrahamic covenant concerns a specifice lineage upon whom the blessings of that covenant will come. And the 'seed' promises are very real and to be followed. The blessings of Abraham upon the entire world would come through these seed promises. They would culminate in Isaac, Israel, Jesus Christ. And so, yes, all nations can be blessed through this Abrahamic Covenant. But the blessing only comes through Jesus Christ. Who only came from Israel. Who only came from Isaac. Not Ishamael. So, if your really concerned over your muslim brothers, then as I said, you should tell them about Jesus Christ. Tell them muhammed was a false prophet and they are following a lie that will lead them all to hell. That is the grace of God. There are no errors in the Old Testament. And it doesn't matter how many good muslims there are. Good is not good enough. Lots of good people will be in hell. There is only one way to be saved, and that is through Jesus Christ. Do you believe that? You don't by what you have said. I know Christianity is in no danger from islam or any other religion. Because it is of God. If you actually read it yourself, you would not hold these strange beliefs that you do. Only one Way. Jesus Christ. All others are destined for hell. Quantrill
OK, so which church needs to divide and be attacked? According to the ten lost tribes, you genes have spread throughout the ME, and whose Semetic features predominate ... yeah, he is. They are closer to Abraham by blood than you or I are. Well, that is what our religion says, there's makes the same claim from a slightly different angle. I believe that is up to God to determine. I believe they are aware of it. Just as they are aware that many Christians are not following the teachings of Christ, and are openly demonizing and misrepresenting their faith. Why would you convert to someone who hates you? Are you telling me that if a Muslim converts, God would SUDDENLY start loving him and that God's love is denied pending this acceptance? Again, which Christian denomination should we convert them to in order to avoid double apostasy? Yep, there are. The OT is full of the folly of man, and indeed man's attempt to approach God through a series of ever constraining rules. That was an error, and it was not God's error. The Golden Idol and Moses - also an error. Jephthah and the killing of his own daughter. Error abounds. Warning abound. Brother, I have read it. I've been into mosques and surrounded by Muslims. Their faith is far more similiar to our faith than any other out there. There are differing cultural traditions, but the same wisdom of the Old testament in found in the Koran. Many of the same techings and principles found in the NT are found in the Koran. I suggest you read it, and indeed find a moderate mosque and give it a visit. And God allows people to make their own decisions. We should respect his decision to allow that honest choice.
Christians should always be willing to confront false doctrine in whatever Church they attend. No, there were plenty of mideast nations already in existance before Abraham. And the lost 10 tribes are lost to man and cannot be given any credit as to a nation. Because you are not of the Christians faith, you don't know if the Christians or muslims are right. If you were Christian, you would know. The Bible is clear. But you don't believe it. Yet you want to call yourself Christian. Yes it's up to God to determine. And God has given us His determination in the Bible. But you don't believe it. Really? Are your muslim brothers aware that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ? God hates islam. And who He hates is up to Him. If the muslim wants to be saved he must come to Jesus Christ. To Christ, not a religion or church. There are no errors in the Old Testament. You continue to show that you are not Christian. Why do you read it? You don't believe it. I have no doubt you have been to many mosques and around many muslims. No, I wouldn't dirty the soles of my feet by entering a mosque. Your problem is not that you respect the muslims decision. It is that you don't think his decision is wrong. And Jesus Christ does. But you do not. God established the Abrahamic covenant in Abraham and his seed. And that seed was Isaac, not Ishamael. And all the lies of the koran don't change it. They simply keep the muslims enslaved and bound for hell. Quantrill
So, should we also violently confront Buddhists? Mormons? Anglicans? Which branch of Islam desevres the MOST confrontation? Shia? Suna? Dervish? Deobandi? Where is your vindictiveness of Jews who reject Jesus, even though Jesus fulfills their own Prophecy? And is it orthodox Jews or moderate Jews that we should detest the most? And yes, I agree that SOME of these branches deserve more criticism of others, but not based upon their claim to the Abrahamic covenant, but because they interpretation drifts from their own written guidelines and principles to preach intolerance, violence, and rejection. Now, consider for a moment that Whabbists or the most extreme branch say the same things about your faith that you say about theirs. I dont reject their doctrine because of unproveable blood line claims, I reject them because the principles and guidelines violate the stated tenets of their Prophet, and what I know to be the reality of God. The truth of Jesus seeps in - if, like the Holy Ghost, it can be heard over the cocaphony.
Take your pick of any branch of islam you like. They are all false. Oh yes you are against some branches of islam, not because they pervert the Bible, but because you say they arn't true to islam. Take all of islam and consider it false. Muhammed is not a prophet of God. The koran is a lie. Jews who reject Jesus Christ, I am against also. However the Jews are God's chosen earthly people and God gave them the revealtion of His Word and His Son. They have rejected God and God has set them aside, for now. But He will finish His work with them, and be true to the Abrahamic covenant. Islam is a perversion of the Bible. It uses the Bible and tries to build a religion for the Arab people. But it changes the truth that is found in the Bible. Thats a difference between me and you. I see the Bible as the only Word of God. And the Bible is true. And all claims of others will be judged by the Scripture. You want to judge some religion by their own writings. To heck with their writings. They are false to begin with. You don't know the truth of Jesus. Thus what seeps in is error and bs. Quantrill
Well, as someone who has been selected to battle extremist religion with something more than words, I will remind you of the Wisdom of Tsun Tzu: Know your enemy. I know the Koran, I know which parts are a preversion of true Islam. I know the Hadith, enough that I can find commonalities and use OUR MUTUAL FAITH in God as a basis of trust to partner with and defeat extremists. You keep acting like you have the wisdom of Jesus cornered and all others need to aboey you Quant, you are simply not right on this one. You downplay the differences between Jews and Christians, exaggerate the differences between Muslims and Christians, Ignore Buddhists, Hindus and Pagans, and every denomination of Christianity - even as you lay claim to the mantel of Christian expert and the desire to punish those who do not accept YOUR version of Jesus. I know Jesus, and YOU have no right to deny that simply because YOUR OPINION of how to deal with dissent is different than mine. I know this though Quant, I will not treat an honorable man like dirt simply because he has a different faith. Neither would Jesus. How did Jesus treat the Romans? Pagans? Prostitutes? See Luke 7:36-50. How did he treat Samaratians? Yet you are telling me that God hates Muslims above al others for having a different faith? That we should fight them and no other? That is someone seek to build bridges of trust and mutual respect and allow the honest aharing of faith .... that they have rejected Jesus? You are not God. And you have NO right to claim the mantel of anyone else's relationship with him. If I am wrong, God will let me know. But then, he sent me into hell holes and I have come back alive. I am pretty sure I am within God's intent.
You see, thats your trouble. You want to be true to islam. Not the Bible. You know islam and the koran. Not Jesus Christ or the Bible. And, your not the only one who ever fought in a war. Just because you fought in a war and survived doesn't mean your beliefs are correct. There are plenty of people of all religions who have fought and survived in wars. Plenty of people who don't believe in anything who have fought and survived. Your experience should not dictate what you believe. Im telling you the truth about the Jews. Im not downplaying anything. And as for the other Christian denominations, they are Christian. Thus we have doctrinal differences. Islam is not Christian in any way shape or form. It is a false religion. It lies about the Bible and Jesus Christ. It has perverted the truths of the Bible. I don't treat anyone like dirt for being honoarable. I will treat them as the enemy when they falsify the truth of the Bible as islam has done. I will tell them the koran is a lie. I will tell them their only hope of salvation is Jesus Christ. Islam has falsified the truths of the Bible. They are as muslims, the natural enemy of Christianity. God hates islam. And so do I. I have every right to come against false doctrine when I see it. And that is what islam is. Your Scripture references have nothing to do with those who have lied about Jesus Christ. Who have purposely perverted the Bible. Islam rejects Jesus Christ. The Jesus they want to respect is not the Jesus of Scripture, the real Jesus. You say because you survive a war you're in Gods will. Yet the Bible says you are not. Who do you believe. You or the Bible? I will believe the Bible. Quantrill
Christians were in agreement about Jesus Christ. Else you were not Christian. None of which changes the fact that islam is a perversion of the Bible and changes the truths of Jesus Christ. Quantrill
Actually, the Qur'an is a plagerized critque of the Bible. Plus the false prophet Mohammad said he recieved it from an angel. That ahgel spoke a differant gospel than the Bible, so, it is accursed. That is why I say that Islam is a Satanic murder cult. Ishmael was a son of the flesh, not of promise like Issac, and Islam is therefore not aa Abrahamic religion and or tradition. It is simply false religion.
Actually, that angel was a jin or genie or evil spirit. That is why after the Muslim-Gabriel appeared to him Mohammed was in shell shock, frighten, scared and confuse. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNbzevID550&feature=feedf"]What Did Mohammed Do In the Cave Hira? (DQ1-3) - YouTube[/ame]
Did you even bother watching the video you posted? It doesn't really prove Gabriel or Jibraeel was an evil spirit....
Once again brother, be ware of taking on the mantel of God for yourself - that is something specifically warned about in the Bible. And there is nothing wrong with having a discussion about the nature of Jesus with Muslims. In fact, most Muslims are very much aware of our views on Jesus, as the US is considered a Christian Nation (which no doubt irks the atheists, but that is the reality of it). But ask yourself if there are good or bad ways of disagreeing with this? If a Muslim Cleric walked in and started lecturing you about the finer points of legalese about your faith, delcared you an apostate, condemed you to hell, and insinuated that war against your kind was necessary .... I rather seriously doubt that such actions would engender even the pretense of conversion - which indeed, extremist Muslims prove. Moderate Muslims are Christianity's new Jews. For centuries we demonized them, and now, based on a slight shift in legalese, we consider them brothers - even though they reject Jesus to a far greater extent than Muslims. So while you say you have a right to fight falso doctrine, you also have a right to apply standards equally. When you hurl invective at one faith, one far closer to Christianity than say ... Hinduism, well, I believe this says that there is something you fear in Islam - and you shouldn't. Christianity sells itself. I do not believe that the Bible says anything specific about my relationship with God nor the messages he passes down through the Holy Spirit and prayer. If I were outside God's will, I would know it. My fellow Christians would be telling me it. The Muslims that I was fighting with would tell me it. My freinds and family would tell me it. So when a man who appears to be possesed by fear tell me the opposite? Well, my response is to let the fear go. We are not good Christians because we bash other people, but because we serve them. Why do you think I am a Soldier?
