Ask a Jew! What the Heck, why not....?

Imagine that.

He apparently had to carry stones, with the 10 commandments, per the babble. Now imagine the caravan to carry, just one book, Genesis, that was carved in stone.

That line you wrote, is stupid, ignorant and there is no way in all the world, that it's true. Magic or no magic. I hate lies.

Muhammad was said to take it orally too and that a gabby angel told him over the course of 2 decades plus.

I bet you could not orally name your own families lineage for the last 250 yrs let alone even remember 1 whole book of a torah.

no such thing. No one is born 'jew'

Each are equally capable human beings, and learn to be a religious adherant. All cases!

That line is another 'false witness' of true.

That is how each evolve. Drop the misleading of truth and be honest.

I thought you said that they were born 'jew'.

if you are right, then the whole world is 'jew'

You have abondoned the 'jewish law' of no false witness.

And i will witness, you are a lousy 'jew', no matter which belief, simply because you ignor 'truth'.

Do you know the 'name' of god?

 

Jewish law is manmade, not by 'god'. And that claim you made, is a misleading of truth (false witness)

Why would god, allow you to mislead?

That's the only "why", that i want to read from you.

 

Your statement here is inaccurate. Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Jews don't abandon Jewish law they amended it. Much as Jewish law has been amended in the history of Judaism over time. (Tell us why is chicken considered meat for example for the purposes of Kashrut). Orthodox Judaism even can't agree on which other Orthodox Jews are Torah Jews.

 

Explain to the forum why you write g-d versus god?

 

Why is only human sexuality deemed worthy of condemnation by the Right in modern times, instead of the timeless immorality of the abomination of hypocrisy, which seems to get a free pass in these same modern times?

 

Or in easier, worldly words, with example: why would wingnuts approve of homosexual BS, in the "holy land" (Israel/Palestine), instead of condemning liars?

 

Ok. So why should human sexuality in modern times be considered worse than the abomination of hypocrisy, in these same modern times? It could be like saying, after In the Beginning, we were really just being hypocrites because we know homos are going to get the blame.

 

I suspect you know the history of the Haskalah; the "Enlightenment."
However, I shall give a brief synopsis from my admittedly biased point of view.
Please demonstrate where I am inaccurate, if you would. Thank you.

The "Age of Enlightenment" or "Age of Reason" began in the 1700's in Europe. Part of this new way of viewing people was to modify; remove; or at least soften social barriers based on religion and race. The governments of Europe began to drop restrictions against previously despised peoples, particularly the Jews. Jews were, to an extent, allowed to be citizens of various European countries.
However, this citizenship came with a price, which was to be integrated into French or German or whatever society it was that was loosening its restrictions.
Jews have always assimilated into whatever society in which they were allowed. When the Muslims conquered the Middle East, the Jewish population dropped from about 8 million at the time of the Romans to about 3 million people. Historians believe that most of this population drop meant that the Jews converted to Islam. This sort of conversion and assimilation had been going on for thousands of years. Again, as an example, the Spanish Inquisition of the 1400's was largely directed against Jews who had converted to Christianity, later called Marranos or Conversos.

So, in the 1700's, there arose another new Jewish movement called the Haskalah, which means the "Enlightenment."
"Enlightened" Jews ceased the "old ways" of Jewish observance to take advantage of the new opportunities to become "ordinary" citizens of whatever country that allowed - particularly Germany and France. Millions of Jews shaved their beards; their peyos; gave up Torah observance - kashrus; keeping the Sabbath; changed their mode of dress; and, in general, did everything they could to look; act; and "fit in" as "good German" (or whomever) citizens.
They invented a new sect of Judaism called "Reform." They were no longer Jewish Germans but, "Germans of the Hebraic persuasion." They moved the Sabbath to Sunday. They wore vestments like the priests; installed organs and choirs in their "synagogues" and tried to ape Christian society in every way possible. Of course, this was for Jews who had some idea that they could still be "Jewish" and be "German." Many simply converted to Christianity.
As time went on, Reform Judaism became extremely hostile to what came to be known as "Orthodox Jews;" those Jews who did not abandon Judaism as it had been practiced for the previous generations.
In the United States, where Jews had been free to practice their religion since the inception of the US, religious Jews did not want to abandon Judaism as the Reform were doing but nor did they identify with the European or Middle Eastern Jewry that was decidedly Orthodox.
So, the US invented what came to be known as Conservative Judaism. They wanted to conserve some of the traditions of Judaism without being bound by the halacha or Jewish Law of their forefathers.
All non observant Judaism today comes as an offshoot of these two denominations.
Reform Judaism rejects the primacy of the Torah and of halacha such as Family Purity; kashrus; and the Laws of Shabbos.
Conservative Judaism set up a system similar to the predominant Christian religion of the US at the time, Episcopalianism.
Episcopalianism is the former Church of England without the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the primacy of the English monarch. Episcopal basically means "council of bishops." It is a democracy of bishops in keeping with American traditions.
Conservative Judaism is a democracy of a council of Rabbis which deny the authority of the Gedolim (Great Sages and Rabbis of the Ages) and take it upon themselves to decide what is halacha (Jewish Law) and Tradition for Conservative Jews.
At first, they were little distinguished from Orthodox Jews but, in time, as with all democratic movements, they became more Liberal and inclusive regarding Jewish Law where today, many Conservative practitioners are indistinguishable from Reform Jews.
Conservative Traditions now range from very stringent views, rejecting their own "Rabbinical Assembly" decisions on what is "Jewish Law" to very liberal views where a rabbi of a synagogue may or may not accept "Conservative Jewish Law" but his or her congregation practices very little Judaism at home, similar to Reform Judaism.

In short, unlike Christianity, where different denominations came into being because they felt that the Christian Church was not "doing it right" or their leaders had some kind of "revelation," Reform Judaism and its attendant children came into being because they didn't want to be "so Jewish."

Lastly, you are correct that "Orthodox Jews" have many different standards of observance. However, where they disagree is on the stringency of various Jewish Laws. As many Jews become more stringent, some like to label them "chareidi" and "ultra Orthodox" while labeling the other side of the spectrum, those who tread a thin line rejecting additional stringency's as "Modern Orthodox."
The main difference in your example is that Torah observant Jews of any stripe accept the Laws of Kashrus, however they might be defined.
Those who do not accept Kashrus as a Jewish Law are not Torah observant Jews.

 

Just to put thinga into perspective. Two thousend years ago, what is now orthodox Jews were a minority.
Most Jews at the time believed in Bible but no "Halacha" what so ever.
A minor faction who invented the "Halacha" grew through the years and now is a majority of the Jews.
How ever 3 new factions came to be in the last centuries: The conservatives, The Reformists and the Secular Jews.
Which of those 4 factions will be dominant in 500 years, no one knows. Just like no one knew 2000 years ago...

 

There were more than 3 factions 2,000 years ago.
Besides the Sadducees and the Pharisees (which are the forebears of Torah observant Judaism for the last 2,000 years), there were other religious factions such as Essenes; Samaritans; Zealots; Idumeans; Cutheans; even the Sicarii and the Christians... Plus more that no one remembers today.
For all practical purposes, there were the same kind of religious wars going on then between Jews as there are today among Muslims (or were among Christians 500 years ago).
And, for the last 2,000 years, including the various sects named above, those that rejected the Pharisaical or Rabbinic school of thought, have all ceased to be Jewish.
The majority of Jews today who are not Torah observant not only reject the Oral Torah; the Talmud; and Rabbinic Authority, but they reject the very concept that G-d gave His Torah to His Jewish People on Mt. Sinai. They also reject the idea that Jews are obligated to G-d's Commandments as outlined by the 2,000 year old Rabbinic Tradition.
Those factors are a tough hurdle for any Religion to overcome. When a person ceases to find value in the core Traditions of their religion, such as the very concept of a Supreme G-d; Creator of the Universe and Man, then, historically, they have NEVER retained their "new" version of their particular religion.

 

So either believe you, or we are nobodies?

aint no way, you are an authority and it would be impossible to put 'torah' (5 books of moses) down on stone, and carry if off the mount.

ie.... he (moses per se) had the commands (10) on tablets, are you suggesting magic for the torah?

How many believe the 'torah' came from magic on mt sin?

It would take a huge amount of resource to combine that many stories, lineages and stone to do all that.

tradition or god?

make up your mind

traditions DO NOT define GOD.

The rabbid are some of the biggest misleading folk, that i know of!

They lack the humility of each of us being equal!


.
i hate'm for it!

 

Very well then, you believe that everyone knew that Abram was going to be a special person before he was born. Nimrod attempted to kill him immediately and again later. Meanwhile it took repeated orders from God to get Abram to move from Ur of the Chaldees and he waited until his father died (at age 205) to do so.
those two thoughts don't work for me. If I knew my son was destined for greatness I would have invested extreme effort into his education and theological development. I would have encouraged him to seek YHWH and respond immediately to any apparent direction.
If I was growing up I would have taken extreme caution to advance my religion and made it clear to everyone.
Everything in my Bible shows Abram as slow, doubting, nearly paranoid and dishonest. Only the sacrifice of Isaac changed that, yet he was still cautious about his son's marriage.
That story also seems to match with some stories of Greek mythology and that is disturbing to me. Do those things ever trouble you, or don't you think about them?

 

Essentially, the Jews who embrace the Talmud instead of the Torah, have merely asserted the idea that all commentary thereafter is invalid.

Today, the Orthodox Jews protect these very Rabbi who took the side against Jesus by certifying the Talmud as if it is Torah to include even mere rabbinical opinions.
The rabbi who collected and interpreted and devised the Talmud supported the authorities of Judaism of 32AD, but then found themselves swamped by a Roman Christianity that had turned the tables of power and fear onto them.

One must read the Talmud with caution, and understand it is a collection of what would be sermons in Christianity by rabbi of 32AD.
It is incorrectly referred to as the Oral Torah in order to certify what these Jewish minsters have long said from their podiums and sermons.

The Talmud is merely a record of what Jews thought the Bible was/is saying.

This is not to discredit the Jewish input, but to expand it with the thoughts and commentary one the same Book by all readers then and now.

 

You are extrapolating from my relatively incomplete references to Avraham Avinu (Abraham, Our Father) in a direction that Judaism does not go...
We learn that Avraham "discovered" G-d, not that "everyone knew he was destined for greatness.
However, rather than reinvent the wheel, here is a video introduction that you might find interesting -
The Wandering Jew: Insights into the life and destiny of Abraham Avinu


Meanwhile - I am quite familiar with most major mythology and religions on planet Earth.
They are ALL similar in various aspects. How could they not be?
I spent about 20 years investigating, studying and actually practicing different religions and philosophies. Based on my experience and study, I realized that the Torah is True; G-d is G-d; and, He did indeed give His Torah to His People.
So, no, I don't really play around with comparisons much anymore. Been there. Done that.
I mainly study and learn more what Judaism is; what we do; what G-d requires of us; and, how this all fits in to the current cycle of world events.

 

I must admit, cupid dave, that is about the most cogent post you have made on this particular topic. And, for the first time, although I disagree with your premise, I find nothing objectionable to what you are writing.

In other words - You believe that Orthodox Judaism today is based on what the Rabbis of the last 2,000 years thought the Bible was/is saying.
Yes. This is true.
And, you might just want to consider that, this makes Judaism the most cohesive and thoroughly researched religion that ever existed. For at least 2,000 years.

 

Learned that from what?

interpretations?

Which who, are his people, if not all of mankind.... ie.... as i quote "I am quite familiar with most major mythology and religions on planet Earth.
They are ALL similar in various aspects. How could they not be?'

Each of the 4 colors of mankind, have pieces. When combining; the unveiling (apocalypse)

be honest and await

ie.. knowledge is evolving, to the last word (name of god: math defining, naming 'g-d')

The best approach to being a good 'jew' (who), is to be honest, seek truth, and await. False witness (lying to people) aint an option!


.

 

Wow ......

I would call science (pursuit of truth) as being the greatest contributer of knowledge ever to exist. The proof is in the population explosion of the last 200 years; we live longer because of 'truth' not the rabbid.

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The fanged tooth are under the cloth.



.

 

Strange, for the first time you and I agree on the same things, from which we each see a totally different implication.

Perhaps I stated more satisfactorily for you, the same things I have been saying again and again:

"i.e.; the Rabbis of 2,000 years stated in the Talmud what thought the Bible was/is saying," and what Orthodox Jews since have repeated as the party line.


This is good for the purposes of discussion since it makes the position of the Jews clearly written in stone.


Where we differ is in your claim that these ancient Rabbi accomplished "the most cohesive and thoroughly researched" interpretation of scripture which has for 2000 years since been expressed as Judaism.
What I see is that they have been stating the same position for 2000 years, or at least from 300AD on.

This is still admirable and very convenient to our discussion, since we have a rather solid position on things which these Rabbi did consider, and the things they did state unequivocally, whether they are found right or wrong hereafter.

I believe your conclusion from our mutual observation may be that since they have said the same things for so long, they must be correct?

 

I watched the video and got more confused. The most important question now comes back to the timeline, specifically what year the tower of Babel was being built and the events following that.
Remember for me it is necessary to account for all Earthly civilizations being founded or refounded after that event. This includes plate tectonics, mountain formations and religious developments. That video makes it clear that he believes Nimrod remained ruler of Babel after the project was abandoned. Yet we have Abraham interacting with Pharoah and other kings. I want to know which Pharoah.

 

Not exactly.

First of all, as I noted before, your dates are wrong. The recorded discussions of who said what in terms of specific Rabbinical discussions on the Oral Torah date from at least 150 BCE. And, the Babylonian Talmud, which is the more widely used, was not "finished" in terms of the discussions in the Gemara, until around 500 CE.
Plus, as ardent as you are regarding the Talmud, I still don't think you understand Jewish Law.
The Talmud is but one piece of Jewish Law for the last 3,000 years.
Our Rabbis, and all Jews in general, have NOT been saying the same thing for the last 2,000 years.
As each new generation has been introduced into This World, each generation faces challenges and questions that previous generations did not.
Jewish Law; halacha, instructs us to draw upon the wisdom of the Torah; the Talmud; and all of the Great Sages that have ever written, in order to understand what G-d expects of us when meeting these new challenges. That is our Mesorah; our Tradition.
We examine ALL of the works of Our Sages in the light of G-d's Written Torah - not just the Talmud - in order to understand what the halacha is in any given situation.

 

Ahh.... Good question. There is much discussion on this. It is one of questions on which there is definitely more than just one Jewish opinion....
Anyway, Phil. I apologize for the confusions on your part but, as I have tried to explain before - the Torah is not a history book. It is not meant to be understood as a history book.
The Torah is the blueprint for the moral Life of Mankind and an instruction manual for the spiritual life of Israel.
I don't think of the Tower of Babel or Nimrod or the Flood or even Avraham Avinu in the way you do.
These are all stories that involve moral and spiritual objectives that are outside of history. The events and people are there to teach us what WE are supposed to do, not to reflect on the dates and places of whatever they were supposed to have done.
That is the I look at Torah so...
I don't know "which Pharaoh." There are several to choose from ....

 

I haven't read every post in this thread but my recollect of why Jews have been tormented has it's base in finance. The early Christians believe usury to be a mortal sin, the Jews thought otherwise. Before there were national banks and money lending practices we have today the Jews were the bankers of Europe and the Middle East. If a King wanted to finance an army he needed gold coin, to get coin he would borrow from the Jews and have his coin minted. At some point in time it became more convenient to just persecute the Jews you borrowed from rather than pay them-at least until they needed another loan. The ruling families of the day much resented the bankers that held so much power over them (the Kings) who were appointed by God himself according to their politics of the day. This eventually manifested itself into the self-serving Internationale which still surfaces today amongst the lower I.Q. folks who cannot take personal responsibility.

 

No. It only makes it stagnant.

 

Making it easy on yourself.
Following the rule: "When ever a contradiction rises, circumvent it like it was a poisonous snake".

Sorry, it will not do for the rest of us.
When we come to see if the "tora" is god's word, we first check, if it tells the truth.
Then we check if it tells the whole truth, and then if it is nothing but the truth.
If it fails in any of this, it is not god's word, but a very good book, I would say the greatest ever, written by man.

and guess what ? just like all the other such books, it turns up fiction and in some parts even sceince fiction.

 

Well, yeah,... I was speaking general terms, as you might note previously, I have said that the Talmud was constructed using the Mishnah of 150BC through the 1st century ACE.

You may remember I quoted a commentary in Talmud which referred to the is Mishnah in regard to the issue of whether to drink from the Elijah Cup.
And, I agree that Jewish commentary has continued throughout most of time since 300AD/500AD.

My main critical observation was the focus on the total reliance of Jews in regard to understanding the Tanakh (Old Testament) by referring to the Talmud.
On any issue that has been considered by those ancient writers, the Jews will observe the now authoritative position taken then.

And, nothing I said above was to imply something would be wrong with the Jews summing up Judaism in 300 or 500ACE.
We all now have a pretty good testimony concerning what the Jews think about the Bible, and how they believe they ought behave in regard to their religious activity, to include teaching Torah.

By means of such a religious attention to the Talmud, by and large, these Jews now insist that this sums to being Torah Observant.