Do you have any friends or family who are gay?

That won't happen because heterosexual males don't do that if they do then they are gays.

 

I tend to agree with you. But you think that people's sexual-orientation is absolute? (I really do not think that is so.)

And a bi-sexual might really throw you a curve, it seems.

 

I do not find this to be a true statement.

You've offered up repeatedly your perception of what being gay is, and it's fair game.

I will never understand why you cling stubbornly to the notion that gay = sex and why you think it's somehow completely separate from everything else about a person.

I did not say it makes me who I am. In fact, I just expended considerable effort in explaining to you that it doesn't, but that it does play some role in self-perception as well as the way others view us.

And you seemingly ignored that entirely in favor of your own misapprehension of what being gay is.

I've at least attempted to explain why it means more than sex to someone who actually IS gay. One might think the perspective of an actual gay person would matter in a discussion about being gay, but apparently not to you.

Then frankly, you need to get out more. It's a message we're bombarded with daily by our detractors.

Apples and oranges. What's increasingly clear is that you aren't interested in my actual perspective, just your own warped interpretation of it.

Most people I've met in my life would rather I pretended that I went by myself or with some nameless friend, than with my husband.

This illustrates pretty clearly what I said in my other post. It's one thing not to care if someone is gay, and another to take a completely callous attitude toward their situation. If I went through all the anxiety that accompanies coming out to someone only to have them be flippant, I wouldn't interpret that as meaning merely that it's a non-issue to them, but also that they don't give two (*)(*)(*)(*)s about me or what I've just gone through in doing so. As a result, I'd be wary of investing any of myself in maintaining a friendship with that person.

You've pretty well convinced me that you don't care about anyone else, and appear to have the emotional range of a teaspoon (h/t to Hermione Granger). You have ZERO concept of what life is like for a gay person, you clearly don't want to know, so why should I bother trying to explain to you why you should care?

Nevermind. It's a waste of time bothering to respond to you. I can't fathom why you're spending you're time on the issue at all. PLEASE do us the favor of going somewhere else to discuss something you actually care about.

If you want to know why you should care, go talk to your gay friends about it. I don't have any more time for you.

 

The truth be told, I've reached the stage in my life where anyone who needs to know that I'm gay already does. Anybody else can figure it out by the fact that I have a same-sex partner with a male name, if they're even privy to that knowledge.

None of which means I won't talk about gay issues if the subject arises. Mostly it doesn't.

 

Amen to that! Most of us who are gay, aren't waiting around in our lives for the approval of others. We are also FIGHTING ACTIVELY for our rights as Americans. Some people don't like any of that, but so be it.

 

we have an epipheny however all of the threads in this section speak otherwise.

Why do you need anyone's approval for how you live your life as long as you aren't doing illegal activities?


How difficult is it for you and others in this forum to understand that most of us could care less about where you sleep and with whom??

You don't need our approval

Personally, I care more about the morals and ethics of my friends because it's that, and not sex where we'll part ways.

 

Who are you to determine my emotional capabilities? Just because I could care less how anyone has sex? Again, it seems that is all so important to you where as it's nothing to me.

Do you steal?
Are you honest?
Are you a hard worker or a free loader?
Are you true to your word or are you a back stabber?
Do you take yourself too seriously or can you poke fun of yourself?
Are you an alcoholic or drug abuser?
Are you an SEC fan or heaven forbid, Big 10?


those are the things which make you ........you.

Those are things which matter to me. In all of the exchanges we've had i have been consistent. If you have a male lover and have the values which I hold dear then both of you are welcome in my house. Who in the heck am I to judge who you sleep with just like who are you? Maybe she's ugly as a cow but I think she's cute. I'd expect you as a friend to respect that. Maybe you wouldn't lust after her but at least don't put her down to me.

If you are such a shallow person that how or with whom you have sex is the end all and be all then we'd never be friends.

So, am I one of those people who must be the constant target and scorn of posters in this section? If so, then your "movement" is in serious jeopardy.

 

If you only knew what you were saying; but it is clear that you do not.

There is a time where people ask and hope for such approval; that time has passed, of course lives will go on regardless.

You don't need our understanding nor approval; you keep on opposing us and we'll keep on fighting you. Welcome to this world of equals. Gay people are never going away. The battles can/will continue; so be it.

Your "friends" (if you have them) will be HUMAN; you might THINK that you can separate-out things you don't desire to regard... but that isn't reality, and it will in due time smack you dead in your face, if you live life for any substantial amount of time.

 

It was only just 8 years ago that a Supreme Court decision rendered laws that criminalize same-sex behavior in my state unenforceable. Those laws remain 'on the books', regardless.

Maybe 8 years ago is ancient history for you, but it's not for us.

It's true that I don't feel that I need anyone's approval for how I live my life. Trouble is, there are a LOT of people who seem to think I do. Some would like to re-criminalize homosexuality. Some have made statements that we should be deported. Some have suggested cruel and unusual punishments.

The expectation that gay people should just turn a blind eye and deaf ear to the chorus of people who oppose not only are equality but our very existence is unreasonable.

In point of fact, to an extent we do need a certain degree of 'approval'; a "live and let live" type of acceptance that allows us to go about our lives unobstructed by undue discrimination in the law. So long as people use the law as a tool to attack our liberties, the fight for that kind of tolerance is ongoing. THAT is why this forum exists and the threads within it.

Again I have to ask: What's it to you? You say it's a non-issue, so why are you here, haranguing us endlessly with the "it's just sex" crap? Doing so tells us that it's not really a non-issue to you - that you have some sort of agenda, and seemingly that agenda includes discounting the importance of the struggle we're facing. Which leads me to ask, to what end? What is your end goal here?

For starters, I'm not persuaded that it's "most of us". Not so long as I'm unable to have my relationship legally recognized under any name in my state. Not so long as I can be discriminated against on the basis of my orientation.

 

I'm frankly not interested in being friends with someone who so completely discounts how my difference in orientation has affected my life, and who won't listen when I try to explain to them my perspective on the issue.

So long as you persist with repetition of the "it's just sex" crap, I would have to say 'yes'.

If you say so, all-knowing one.

 

again with an attempt at an insult

look

you and I put our pants on the same way. Our only difference is what we do in the bedroom. That is it. Maybe you are "offended" because you feel that I take a simplistic view at it. I'm all ears and waiting for anyone to explain to me how a gay person

drives a car differently
eats differently
walks differently
laughs differently
etc etc

the only place where you will find a difference is.............SEX

that is it. So, who is it that really has the problem Mr all knowing???

 

Only one thank goodness, and he lives a long way away!

 

No, that's not all there is to it.

Yes. Since you don't care to understand why that's offensive, there's nothing i can do to help you.

You're asking about entirely the wrong things, and avoiding anything relevant at all costs.

Nope.

We may be more similar than different, but the differences are not insignificant. They may not matter to you - why should you care, you're not gay so they don't affect you.

Being gay may not determine who a person is, but all the (*)(*)(*)(*) a gay person has to put up with because of that difference does shape our experiences, and therefore who we become.

You want to know where we differ? Trust, for one. Diminished levels of trust = heightened anxiety. That in turn affects our perception of our selves and our place in the world. If you think none of that influences the way we relate to others, how we weigh risks, etc. then you truly are blind to the differences between us.

Things that heterosexuals take for granted can hold considerable risk for us, and we often decide it's just not worth it. It's depressing to have to think about how stifled our lives sometimes are as a result.

One tiny example: It's not uncommon for me to see straight couples walking hand in hand in public or showing each other simple affection in myriad ways that no one bats an eye at.

As a gay man, I don't have that privilege. My partner and I do not hold hands, we maintain more physical space between us than straight couples, we do not embrace in public, and we do not kiss if there's another soul around - not even a simple peck on the cheek. Not even around friends and family.

Now, it's certainly true that there are gay people who are willing to take the risks associated with expressing affection in public. Two things to say about that: 1) That still doesn't mean the risks they face in doing so are the same as for heterosexuals, and 2) the anxiety that accompanies being part of such a small minority manifests itself in different ways for different people, depending on their life experiences and environment.

You're focused on what people do/how they do it in order to discount our differences. In taking such an approach, you completely ignore all the context that influences our ability or inability to do certain things. You ignore the difference in levels of risk that exist for gay people. You ignore how all of that makes us feel, and how that in turn also influences are approach to social interactions, personal relationships, etc.

I'm not saying that every gay person shares the same experiences. I am saying that even with the diversity of experience that exists within the set of people who are gay, we still all experience our difference from the majority heterosexual population in one way or another.

Note to anyone tempted to respond: Spare me the lecture that I'm self-limiting. You're missing the point, which is that it's a product of our experience of being different. It can be quite a struggle to overcome one's fear and anxiety when your trust in others has been so completely destroyed by their indifference - or worse (much worse). I don't need your judgment - all it does is confirm for me that I shouldn't even take the risk involved with expressing my thoughts on the matter.

To sum up: The differences aren't in what we do - they're in the experiences we have as a minority, the experiences that are withheld from us - and how all of that influences the way we interact with our environment, other people included.

 

and last, there you go considering yourself a minority. You aren't any such thing unless you narrow it down to sex. I like to dunk my McDonalds hamburgers into their milk shakes, I'm sure I'm a minority in that respect.

We can all claim to be a minority in some respect or other. If you are a male, then darn it you're a man. You're not a (black, red, white, Asian, gay, straight etc) men.....no sir, you are a man. It's the demand for categorizing people where many of the problems all begin.


Unless it has some bearing such as black men are more prone to the following disease then the silos are not needed

 

Strawman. Nowhere did I say you could never be trusted. But it would take much longer for me to develop that kind of trust in you - and it can be lost more quickly as well. It's also not merely how I relate to straight people - the issue applies to same-sex friendships and more intimate relationships as well. It also applies to institutions like government, law, religious bodies and their followers, and even family members. Everything is affected.

So my real life experience as a gay man doesn't matter - only your opinion about it. I call BS on that. You are not me. You have not lived my life. You do not know what I have been through. And you very clearly don't want to know, because instead of listening to what I'm saying for its truth, you are stubbornly entrenched in discounting it or dismissing it entirely.

I don't live in redneck heaven, but my partner and I have still been harassed for holding hands. So we just don't do it anymore. Too dangerous, even in a place that is supposedly otherwise very liberal.

I've had things thrown at me when standing outside a known gay bar to get some fresh air.

I was attacked by a co-worker with a pitchfork while he yelled anti-gay slurs, based merely on his supposition that I was gay when I didn't join in banter about heterosexual exploits - all while a supervisor watched and did nothing.

That's just a few examples of many in my personal experience. But if we're to believe you, they couldn't possibly have happened because "no one cares" about it.

So now you apparently wish to call me a liar. Pretty much anything I would say in response would probably get me banned. All I can say is you do not know what you're talking about, and you're apparently too entrenched in your uninformed perception to listen to someone who does.

I would venture to guess that you're hell bent on denial of my real life experiences.

I not only think so, I know so because they've said as much.

I'm not the least bit sorry to inform you that your doubts don't mean (*)(*)(*)(*).

Classic case of discounting the experience that gay people have with discrimination, abuse, etc.

There is more to it than you care to understand.

You'd be wrong. Some people do - enough of them to affect our worldview and hence how we interact with others.

It's a part of who I am. You are in no place to tell me what does or doesn't contribute to my sense of identity. Thinking you are is evidence that you consider yourself superior.

Doesn't have to be everyone. It happens often enough to make us continually wary. It's when we forget to look over our shoulder that we usually wind up in trouble.

Ridiculous comparison. Gay people are most definitely in the minority. Just more denial of our reality on your part.

Sure, everyone is in the minority at some point. The difference: You don't get harassed, publicly ridiculed daily, or find yourself fighting against laws that limit your access to government based on dunking your hamburger in your milkshake.

You were at least half right about this: "It's the demand for categorizing people where many of the problems all begin."

What you've missed is that gay people aren't the ones doing the categorizing in order to discriminate.

 

a pitchfork??? seriously? Come on, when was that? How old were you and how old was the idiot? I'm not calling you a liar but was it an actual attack or was the guy being a smart-aleck waving it around?

There are ignorant people in all walks of life.

If you are saying that the idiot actually attacked you and struck you because you sleep with guys then he's nothing more than an idiot. He probably also kicks dogs, slaps around women etc

he probably also doesn't like blacks, jews, polish, italians etc etc etc.

You continue to state that only your real life experiences are fact and what I witness with my own 2 eyes are not. That is pure arrogance and serves little purpose. Time and again I tell you that in my travels and circles I see none of that. For my work I have to be aware of body language and eye contact etc and just don't see it. Nowhere no how have I ever said that it doesn't exist because it does, but not just against gay people.

So, the pitchfork is an extreme and I'd like to hear more. Honestly, if I saw any co-worker pick up a pitchfork or other weapon against another that employee would be on the ground before he knew what hit him.

As an employer, I can assure you that he would be out of work and I'd try to encourage you to press charges. I don't care if you're gay, straight, black, white, pink, asian whatever, that stuff doesn't fly with me.

 

Do you have any friends or family who are gay?
Yes, I've known quite a number of the years. Some I have only known as gay, some have 'come out' since I have known them (some of those were a bit of a surprise, some were not!).

Did your relationship change after you learned they were gay, and in what way(s)?
Not at all. They are still the same people they always were, and I am still the same as I was, so why would it? I was never interested in the details of what they did with their partners in the bedroom anyway, so makes no difference to me if their partners (or prospective partners) are one gender or the other!

 

A few family members. It made me happy because now I have more people to make fun of. I make fun out of everyone, and gays are an easy target.

 

isn't there a minimum age to post here?

 

BINGO

that's exactly how I see it but continue to get attacked on this site. Who cares how they have sex? It doesn't change or affect who they are.

 

LOL!

I enjoy making fun of uptight people.

 

If the entire issue revolved around you and your relationships... we wouldn't even be discussing this. Unfortunately, your perspective and distinctively-singular experiences do not define the reality of all who are or have dealt with homosexual people. Perhaps your perspective might lead to you defending more homosexual people from certain situations, but that remains to be determined/revealed.

 

You'll even eventually receive what you're so apt to dish out. LOL!

 

I have family who are, no biggie.

I certainly wouldn't take them to the city gates and stone them.

 

Yes, seriously.

Why does it matter how old I was or the other person was? 1984, both adults in our mid to late twenties, cutting brush etc. along the side of the road.

Seems to me that your trying to call me liar, just like you have been throughout the whole thread.

He wasn't just waving it around, nor was he joking.

Oh, the irony. You refuse to consider for even a second that maybe you don't know everything there is to know about being gay and living in a world that is 95% (or more) straight.

Assault, no battery (he missed. Good thing, since he was aiming for my face). No idea about the rest.

I wouldn't know.

It's the other way around. YOU are the one who has been saying through this whole thread that my experiences are a fiction, as if you can see into my life like some all-knowing god. Just because you haven't witnessed this kind of anti-gay violence and discrimination first hand doesn't mean it never happened.

At no point have I made ridiculous statements like "all straight people hate gay people", etc. What I have stated, truthfully, is that anti-gay attitudes are widespread and expressed with sufficient frequency to affect how most gay people perceive their sexuality, identity and place in society. To which you, without fail, reply with gems like "it's nothing more than how you have sex, why would I care how you have sex" etc.

YOU AREN'T LISTENING! You're mind is completely closed on the subject. You consistently discount my experiences, tell me that it's all "within", etc. You refuse to even consider my perspective as having any validity, when it's MY life that we're talking about!

More irony.

So if a tree fell in the woods and you didn't personally witness it, then I guess it didn't happen.

Bullcrap. You've been calling me a liar through the whole thread. Look at how you opened your response to my last post - by questioning and discounting my experiences.

Never said it only ever happened to gay people. So that's another strawman.

Extreme behavior happens. Just ask any of the people who have been killed in the past year as a result of anti-gay violence. Oops, guess you can't because they're dead. One of my friends was beaten and left for dead in a gravel pit, suffering permanent brain damage. Another had several of his teeth fractured from a blow to the face. Another acquaintance was murdered in broad daylight, after being harassed repeatedly by the same person, but no charges ever filed against his murderer.

So I'm not the only one, and I really doubt my life is that exceptional.

Well, your assurance doesn't do diddly squat for me, since my supervisor did nothing. Fortunately the incident happened near the end of the day, and as soon as we were off the island I told him I wouldn't be back. I figured my life was worth more than the wages I was earning, actually working while half the guys napped, hid in the swamp, etc.

Why would I bother pressing charges? My word against his, and a bunch of witnesses who weren't about to take sides with a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*).

Well, it does fly with a whole lot of people who just assume that the (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) deserves whatever he gets.

Appreciate what you've got - we don't all live in places where gay people are equals who don't have to constantly be on guard against any stray word or gesture that might set off some hothead.

Seriously, you just don't get it. Pretty clear to me that you never will. So I give up. Go right on believing that there's no difference between us, and that my life is no different from yours. Seems you're going to believe whatever you want to any way, and no amount of me telling you the truth about what life is like for many gay people in America is going to alter your perspective by the tiniest fraction.