Fetal Pain Is A Lie: How Phony Science Took Over The Abortion Debate

If you've ever received a local anesthetic, you know the doctor waits until both his patient and he are sure there will be no pain. You can't do that with a fetus. You don't know if the anesthesia is working.

These same moral, ethical, biological questions are being asked about the death penalty. I'm glad it's being researched in both areas, abortion and the death penalty. Our problem is we don't know who to trust for the right data and interpretation of data. The current death penalty debate is a great example. Death penalty opponents don't accept the scientific solutions to painless death. I don't hear anyone calling them flat-earthers.

 

In your first post above.....seems you dismiss the pain of women going through pregnancy and childbirth, real pain, not the mythical pain of a fetus.

 

If the woman can't feel her uterus then the fetus will be numb.

When your dentist is drilling a tooth and he injects Novocaine does only that tooth go numb or the whole side of your face?

So yes, we do know that the anesthesia is working because the woman would feel it first if is wasn't working.

You can do your own non partisan research on Lidocaine by just looking it up on the internet. The effects of how it works are common to all parts that are injected.

You can figure out how it affects you and you can then make the connection that if the dentist injected into the jaw below the bottom right molar but your upper lip on the right is numb then it must be carried via your bloodstream around your body.

Therefore if it is injected directly into the uterus and the placenta is attached to the uterus drawing oxygen and nourishment via the woman's blood then the anesthetic will reach the fetus. Since the fetus is probably about the size of the molar it won't take much to numb it completely.

 

I have three kids and stood at the head of the bed with my wife comforting her best as I could each time.

I also know a woman who has had an abortion because she's afraid of pain, blood, complications, and even death. It's hard for me to sympathize with making the choice for those reasons, unless the fear is based in the reality of a doctor's grim prognosis. It was many years ago and she was young and afraid. I'm not her judge, but if it were me doing the judging, I'd want a better explanation than not being willing to accept the consequences, knowing full well the consequences, including the pain and potential for complications during childbirth.

Maybe if you were the moral judge you wouldn't see it the same way. I respect that. But it's likely you don't respect any moral judgments, whether scientifically valid or not, that may restrict abortion. Most pro-choicers have a seriously jaded view on the moral and ethical questions. They resent them, and usually because they simply resent religion.

 

This is standard practice without deviation? Is it mandated by law? It's hard enough to get laws passed requiring only physicians do abortions. Would you support laws mandating an anesthesiologist or physician administer the drugs before and abortion?

 

Oh brother!

Someone is about to go poking around in your most sensitive area and you don't want any anesthesia?

States do have the right to regulate how abortions are performed and I am sure if you take the time and trouble you can find that all out for yourself. Alternatively you can just google abortions and look at providers and see what procedures they offer. Or you can look up how abortions are performed on Wikipedia.

Short of a back street abortion I can't imagine any woman agreeing to undergo an abortion without anesthetics involved.

Would you?

 

Try asking a coherent question.

And it is about abortion not choice, choice can be what to have for dinner tonight, what movie to watch, what cloths to wear, who to vote for, I'm all for those choices so am I pro-choice? If not why not?

It's about getting abortions, why do you always have to hide from your own positions and what they truly involve and have to engage in your pretend games?

 

Even the baby bluchers admit that a baby can feel pain at 24 weeks and their reason for opposing the 20 limit is because any limit could lead to the banning of late term abortions and that would be horrible.

Who are the stupid (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)es that can't get off of their asses and get an abortion before 20 weeks??

I would accept abortions later in the pregnancy for medical reasons but the pro-abortion liberals want no limits on abortion.

 

YOU did NOT have three kids, your wife did...(oh, ya, you had the PAINFUL job of comforting her )..but watching her agony made you happy that she paid the consequences for her having sex.

A woman doesn't need YOU, in your moralistic religious self righteousness, to OK her reason for having an abortion and that is the way it should be.

No woman needs to explain her reason for having a legal medical procedure no matter what Anti-Choicers think.



It's quite stupid to think that because someone's morals are different from another person's ideas of what is moral that it makes either of them immoral.


Science has nothing to do with morals....

 

I'm not surprised to see you sticking to your usual habit of, when you have no answers, to claim that the other poster is incoherent.....


If you don't know what "choice" means when discussing abortion then you probably can't handle the deeper issues or even explain your silly thing about laying babies end to end....

 

When you have a coherent question let me know.

ROFL you are avoiding the abortion part at all cost.

As I said it is about abortion alone and you are pro-ABORTION. Again why the word games?

I did explain it to you and then you admitted you don't care about the over 6 miles of dead babies killed every year in abortions, and those are just the 1.5% of abortions.

 

And you cannot comprehend the simple fact that if abortions equal the number of women who want and have abortions there is nothing wrong with the number.

You seem to be proposing that legal medical procedures should be rationed after a certain number of miles.....that is just plain ridiculous.

I think you may know better but you're attempting to dramatize abortion ..........because you have no facts.

 

as requested, one death from the morning after pill... given out by a school nurse, causing a stroke, killing the girl... do you not have google, there are literally dozens and dozens of stories I could link to and cite where people suffered known side effects of these pills and died days or weeks after use... despite having no other known medical conditions, and the pills being the only change in their medical status, and the death being caused by very well documented side effects of the pills... geez dude...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13100/Mother-calls-tougher-morning-pill-measures.html

P.S. out of curiosity have you ever read the potential side effects on the package as required by the FDA? ever wonder WHY they require all those potential side effects to be listed, because in their blind studies the patients who took these items, had those things happen to them after taking it... thats why they get listed as side effects!!!!!

P.S.S. I also notice you failed to address my challenge to your other statements, I can only assume since this is the only one you challenge, you now acknowledge you were deceitful and misleading with your information, and now that I have once again given an example of your other challenge, that proves all your facts were lies...

 

can you show me a medical journal describing how to perform an abortion procedure that involves application of a sedative to the fetus... or can you only show me medically accepted procedures for this surgery to apply the sedative to the mother for her pain... (yeah exactly, the mothers pain is considered but not the kid killed)

 

Try actually reading post #703 where the process is dumbed down enough for anyone to understand how it works.

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=316441&page=71&p=1065810090#post1065810090

The anesthetic (which dulls pain) is injected directly into the woman's uterus and is then carried by her bloodstream to the placenta which then numbs the fetus.

This isn't rocket science. If you have ever had a Novocaine injection you will have felt the effects for yourself.

And since you asked here is the procedure!

http://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pregnancy/surgical-abortions/

 

so basically everything you just said proves my point... you can't provide a single medical journal describing procedures where numbing agents are used to numb the fetus, only the woman... to assume and guess the fetus is numbed is pure speculation as its not the intended or direct target for the medication being used in this procedures... like I said... find me a SINGLE guide on abortion procedures that uses agents directly for the fetus itself... none exist... the ONLY argument you could have is people love the mystery "24 weeks" or "26 weeks" a fetus feels pain excuse... but even in late-term abortions they do NOT medicate the fetus prior or during abortion... this isn't something up for dispute, its simply not done, its not medically practiced... you're just trying to link the numbing of the mother to the fetus, nice failed try...

I will await any peer reviewed document outlining how to numb the fetus during abortion... just give me ONE... don't cite numbing of the woman as the same thing, its NOT...

P.S. read your own "proof" also... it says they administer a shot to terminate the fetus BEFORE the procedure begins, which means BEFORE they apply numbing agents... THEY LITERALLY KILL THE CHILD BEFORE NUMBING THE MOTHER... hence your theory the fetus is numbed prior is ruined... by your own evidence...

and just so people get a very visual about what happens to a fetus... that isn't "numbed" or "terminated" prior to the procedure...

imagine that happening to an animal that feels pain, can you imagine what that must feel like, to have your skull cut open and insides sucked out while alive?

 

Amazing that you don't know the fetus is actually connected to the woman it's in....

 

Not only did you fail to read the link provided but you also failed to read the part that was QUOTED in the post!

Let me highlight it for you!

Anesthesia is toxic!

The dose directly injected into the cervix, which is the opening of the uterus, is sufficient to kill the fetus in that procedure!

Your woeful ignorance is not my problem, or the problem of woman undergoing abortions.

But it is typical of the anti-rightists who never bother to research the FACTS before whining about things they know absolutely less than zero about.

 

re-read my message to his reply... where he "shows me proof" the fetus is numbed... then I read his proof, and it shows the fetus is terminated prior to the procedure... meaning prior to being numbed... thank you for reading his own proof...

 

The fetus has PeaPod deliver it's groceries!

- - - Updated - - -

Reading comprehension is a life skill. Your local community college probably offers adult remedial classes for a very modest fee.

 

its ironic you assume my challenge means I am anti-abortion or a right-winger... clearly I've stated in this thread already, and on numerous threads on this website in the past that I still support abortions... but I don't lie and deceive people about the facts or my "liberal interpretation so I don't feel guilty" facts get in the way of reality... so way to prove how stereotypical and obtuse your mind is to the factual reality of the documents you're citing as proof I'm wrong... they actually prove you are wrong... there is no numbing agent applied to the fetus...

P.S. for the record... Methotrexate is often whats used to terminate the pregnancy... go google that one chief... its not anesthesia... like you want to believe... research what they actually inject to terminate the pregnancy, not what they inject the woman with to numb her pain... FACTS ARE FACTS AND PRESUMPTIONS ARE PRESUMPTIONS... stop presuming and start fact checking... google it bro...

 

Oh, the irony!

Medically induced abortions are no different to miscarriages and they happen prior to 7 weeks. How far along is a fetus at 7 weeks?

Does every single woman have to take a sedative when she miscarries even if she doesn't even know that it is happening?

Only abortions that require the use of medical instruments inserted into the vagina have anesthesia and it will either sedate the fetus or cause the death of the fetus depending upon the dosage and the procedure.

Either way the fetus cannot feel any pain which is the basic idiotic premise behind this thread that you are defending from a position of woeful ignorance.

 

heh so as I read that... "wow I didn't realize they actually use cancer drugs as well as other harmful and painful drugs to actually terminate the fetus, I thought it was just anesthesia, but since you proved I was incorrect in my statements I shall not defend that I was wrong, instead I will deflect and say the fetus can't feel pain so who cares"...

way to acknowledge you were not well informed of actual abortion procedures... I guess that why I wanted you to cite actual medical journals outlining the procedures and methods as well as all the drugs and what scenarios they are acceptable and the best likely course for the woman... you know, to educate your reading comprehension starved brain, as you suggested mine was, but clearly I've read, understand, and now use the medical journals actual practicing doctors use, rather than internet physicians who think they know everything because they read a website that supports their narrative, rather than the actual scientific journals in use and practice today...

thanks for playing today, you did not win jeopardy...

P.S. Like I said I'm not against abortion, I'm against people who lie about it... which is you... stop lying to others and spreading the misinformation you just learned was wrong, feel free to get the medical journals and inform yourself more...

 

The fact is some people have already fought against physician laws. I would expect nothing less than the same people opposing similar laws for anesthesiologists. The point of asking isn't to know for myself how it's done. The point is to see how many pro-choicers would support these laws. If they don't support laws requiring physicians, how can they be a proponent for the women's health and safety?

 

Read again. I have three kids.

Science has a lot to do with morals. Ever hear of bioethics?

You're the one that sounds self-righteous. You don't hold the moral high ground because five people in black robes said abortion is legal. Sorry, that didn't close the books on the ethics of abortion.