Geert Wilders as EU-President, Maria Le Pen as Minister of Foreign Affairs , why not?

It's interesting because Americans don't really understand Europe and so sometimes start supporting neo-Nazi politicians because they share their islamophobia and don't recognize these scum for the evil fiends that they really are.

Ostap is from Germany I believe.

 

Quite correct. I think in a very revealing way their support very much paints a clearer picture of American tendencies - that behind their 'anti-socialism' slogans amongst others, they harbor quite dangerous even fascistic views of law and order, right and wrong and how government should operate.

Ok. He's also an ardent Christian fundamentalist, which is surprising given he's German, I thought Germany have moved past most of that nonsense.

 

I couldn't possibly say but I think he sends us a little message with his interesting forum name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostap_Bender

 

haha that is interesting.

 

Don't judge like that, please... The people who vote for the FN aren't neo-nazis for the bigest majority. Marine Lepen lie a lot; she's not as her dad, she had never said any racist thing; she want make her party look serious and not dangerous, she try to make the FN "normal", or as if it was a normal party, and she do it, that's why a lot of naive people vote for her... Well, that's just 18%, that's not the majority, just the people who don't understand anything to the politic or who are victim of racism for whrite. And, vote for Marine Lepen is a big shame in France. If you think that Marine Lepen look racist, you're wrong; don't confuse with her dad, she is very different, like if she have a lot of idea similar to him.

You invent everything... Everybady know that there where some colabo in France, nobody deny it, and the people who have collaborate with the nazi were and are very badly consider; but the bigest majority of the population wasen't collabo or resistant, France was more neutral and the population suffered of the German invasion. The second word war was horrible for France, she have begin to be less powerful at that period and a lot of thing where destroy. I can't undersand when you said that the WW2 was well for the french people... That's totaly wrong and it make me think that you really don't know the history of France during the WW2...
Why you said that French people hate muslim and are racist with them? That's totaly wrong once again... I don't know where you have read that... If this is for the FN, you know that is only 18%, and this 18% hide that they are for the FN because that's a big shame to say that... In France, muslim are haven't really any problem of racism!

 

The roots of the problem is inside your own words. Right above you just stated "in Europe we know well the history of Europe, and not of Turkey,...". You asked "If history is not business of the politicans then who else's" earlier right? The answer is that history is business of historians and not politicans. Most of you, as you stated, don't even know history but go ahead and say "It was a genocide". Why? Because, as you said, "everyone says so". That's what bothers me. Judging us, even punishing us for politically motivated law with hearsay knowledge about the issue which holds little-to-none ties to what actually happened in history. Thank you for making expressing myself easier for me. I appreciate it.

Uhhmmm, okay...

 

I assume by "Holocaust" you're tying the so-called "Armenian Genocide" to the Holocaust in an absurd way that would please any Armenian propagandist, which in fact are uncomparable, oh the drama!

We don't deny any crime. We only struggle hypocrisy.

 

When I said that the European know more the history of Europe, I don't speak about all the European, just about the big majority; some know well the history of Turkey etc, and they speak about a genocide, and, I trust them. When we learn history in France, we speak a little about it, and, for me, that's really a genocide.
That's for blame Turkey; French people don't hate Turkey, we have no any reasons to don't love this country!... People speak about a genocide because there have been a genocide, not for said nasty thing about Turkey; all the country in the word have make bad thing, that's not for attack the Turkey!...

History is the business of the politicians and of the historians, in my opinion. You need the historians for know well the history, and we need politicians for their power. That's not an historian who can make change the thing... They have no power in their country, so, that's the politicians who must act, and that's the politicans who make the history, not the historians.

 

This is the whole point. Hitler in 1932 wanted the German Nazi Party to "look respectable". Of course Nazis today, in the aftermath of the Holocaust, want to hide their extremism. Jean Marie Le Pen found this difficult and the fact that he was a nasty little thug was clear, but 17% of French people still voted for him. All French people are perfectly aware of the FN's fascism. Look at your excuse - that they don't realize they are voting for a racist. It feels very much like the supporters of Vichy who argued that Petain was not so bad. France has already been down this road once. As a country its resistance to Nazism was VERY SMALL. France had a major antisemitism problem coming from the Dreyfus affair. Of course this was not all French people - France had a Jewish Prime Minister before WW2 - but it was a sizeable number. There just is no excuse for voting for the FN. The fact is that over again we hear the argument in France that "because French people don't realize they are voting for Nazis, that is OK then". Well I'm sorry. Adults have to take responsibility for their actions. The FN has a clear fascist pedigree. Those who vote for it are scum. Other French people tolerating the disgusting actions of people in France voting Nazi, contribute to this problem.

I don't invent anything. French people on the whole went along with the Petain regime and did not resist. After the war many collaborators got away with it. The Paris police who murdered arab protestors in the early 1960's, were controlled by Nazis. Foreign reporters, trying to report this massacre were stopped, just as if they had been in the USSR or a fascist country. France's refusal under De Gaulle to face up to its dark collaborators, is well documented now by historians. There was even evidence that linked Mitterand to collaborators but his story was that he was a Resistance fighter. De Gaulle desperately wanted to hide the extent of collaboration - and this was why Chirac had to apologize for the French role in the Holocaust only recently. De Gaulle's story was that France was liberated by the French. He wanted to play down the help of Britain and the USA. Of course this did not extend to all French, particularly in Normandy, but it was a major theme of French nationalism and re-establishing France as a global power. The past had to be forgotten. De Gaulle blocking Britain's entry to the EU was another part of trying to minimize the view of Britain's role in liberating France. If you treat your former benefactor badly you can insinuate that he wasn't really a benefactor after all. The objective of De Gaulle was to encourage French nationalism to consolidate his power. He knew well that - unlike Germany whose emerging liberal youth were horrified at the crimes of their parents generation - France was still really the same France it was pre WW2. There were anti-semites and there were leftists. French conservatives - in the dreary villages of Eastern France or in areas of the South, were always sympathetic to fascism. I have spent time in the East (Haut Doubs and Jura) and I speak French. It is a very insular part of the world, hostile to foreigners (even French speakers), which feels completely different to modern Normandy and Brittany and l"Ile de France. These backward areas were the bedrock of fascism in France. In Germany these kinds of people were humiliated and has to renounce their former extremism to their horrified children. Not so in France, as the myth of France the Victim was projected so strongly that France the Collaborator was forgotten.

When 18% of your population vote Nazi, twice in fifteen years, you should consider that you have a problem. Nazi parties always deny that they are extremist. That does not get anyone off the hook. France should take responsibility for the fact that one in six French voters has voted for Nazis and stop making excuses for them.

 

Turkey is in Europe. So is Russia. The centre of Europe is in Poland. France is not the same as Europe.

 

Jean-Marie Lepen have never been in 17%! You confuses with Marine who had 18% in the last election and who his very different than her dad.
Jean-Marie Lepen was really racist and he had 10% in the election in 2007. If everybady speak about the FN now, it's because the FN score increase a lot with Marine Lepen, she is very different than her dad, she never say racist thing, she have some colored people (not a lot, but there is, now) in her party, she go in some Juden associations etc... She want even change the name of the party; but her dad say that he don't want.
If Marine Lepen was similar to her dad, she will had 10%, like him.
And, the members of the FN said that people call them "néo-nazi" just for make a bad reputation to their party. They said that the FN is a patriot party and nobody today say that the FN is a nazi party exept Mélanchon the communist who hate her very much... Personnaly, I don't think it is a nazi party. It's an extremist party, dangerous, but not nazi! You can't say that you love France if you are nazi.

Very small resistance? You think that it was easy to become resistant?... If you've got a work, you must stop it, so, the big majority of the resistant where very yong, 16, 17 years... It was extremely dangerous to be resistant, if the nazy caught you, they tortured and kill you or send you in a concentration camp; they must hide them, leave their family for don't be caught... And, join the resistance was very hard to... The resistants where hidden, so, how can you say that you want join them? Do you think it was easy? There where approximately 400 000 resistants in France, that's not enormous, right, but the majority of the population supported and help them. And to, you don't speak about the French people who have hidden some juden and some resisants like if it was very dangeous.

The only thing who you have find for offend my country his a story of before the word war?... Wow ...
Remember you that before the word war ALL the Europe was antisemit because everybady in Europe was very Chrisitan. And, in France, for Dreyfus, a lot of people have help him... Zola, for exemple, because you quote him while he his a counter-exemple because he his a proof that a lot of French people like the juden before the word war. To, in the end of this story, Dreyfus have been acquit.
And, now, after the word war, in France, antisemistism is extremely badely considerate; don't speak about a story old of more than 100 year for blame France, that's so ridicul.

At first, Pétain was estimated by French people because he had win an hard battle in Verdun against the German during the second word war. So, French people thought that Pétain wasen't for the German, first. After that, Pétain have manipulated people, make a lot of propaganda etc...

Nazi in 1960 in France?!... But are you serious?... It was in the colonial war, there's no any report.

I understood well the choice of De Gaulle. He must make people confident to their country. De Gaulle was really a great man. He doesn't want see the repuation of his country soiled, that's well, that.
You know, France and Britain aren't very friend country... During the second word war, at first, we where allied, but a lot of people said that GB wasen't implied in the war as France and said that if France must lay down arms, it was a little British's fault because that they have leave the French lonely with the Germans who where more powerful than them, so, we have of course loose.
And to, there have been to some problem with the "Free" France and the England.

You can't said that you know the opinion of the French people because you are go in a part of France... It depend where you go in France; of course, if you go in Henin Beaumont of I don't know where, you will have a bad image of France, but all the France isn't like that.

France can't and musn't say anything; whe are a democracy, everybady is free to vote.

 

Turkey isn't in Europe. There's just a very small part of the country who is on the old continent (3% if I remember well)

 

First of all I accidently said "Most of you don't know history", I meant to say "Most of you don't know our history". As I said, "because everyone says so" isn't a valid arguement. Most of you judge based on hearsay knowledge. Your law is politically motivated and has nothing to with "dealing history". Otherwise your politicans declare a law about Khojaly Genocide aswell. That's nothing but hypocrisy.

It's historians job to search history and historical events. People should heed voices of neutral historians about historical events, not voices of politicans whose views are biased based on a certain political ideology.

Lastly I'm not saying French people hate Turkey. That's of course not true. But France's current political position is what it is. Holds too much against Turkey, forcing Turkey to react.

 

What do you mean by "old contienent"? You speak about land involvement, which doesn't make sense. Turkey is member of almost all of European organizations, Turkey is anywhere any other European country is involved, don't you see?

 

I'm not an historian, I can't know everything about history like them... We are obligee to trust somebady for have an opinion. You trust somebody to: you trust the Turkish historians who said that there had no any genocide, but me, I trust the French historians who said that there have been a genocide.

There isn't a lot of people who heard the historian... They need politians!

 

"Old continent"? An other word for say the "Europe"... I don't know if American have the same expression for call the Europe.

Turkey don't don't look European.
She's not in the UE, so, we never see it in the European discussed.

 

Alright, fair enough... I don't dislike anyone else for stating "it was a genocide". People who refuse the term should have right to have their say just like those who embrace it have, that's what I defend!

 

Ah yes you're right, "Old Contient" for Eurasia, "New Contienent" for the Americas.

By the way, Turkey isn't fully European yes I don't deny this, but Turkey isn't different than from any average European country. Notice I said "most of organizations" not "all". EU is an exceptation, though I don't think we actually need to join it

Turkey isn't member of EU, yes. Not all of European countries are members of EU either.

 

You are right for that.
Well, I think we must accept all the opinion.
But I think that we can't, policians must have a choice very clear, and, that's was a good thing for Sarkozy's election to be supported by the Armenian. Well, now, I think they will stop to speak about the genocide in Turkey, because the elections are finish; Hollande don't need to be more popular, now; and, when he will make our country in the (*)(*)(*)(*), I don't think his plan will be to flatter the Armenian.

 

Why so pro-Armenian? Why is it that hard to stay neutral. If everyone thinks it was a "genocide", let them be. Don't oppress those who say otherwise...

 

Yes, this is that Well, we don't say "old continent" en lot of Asia.

I said that because I love Turkey: don't go in UE, that's really the badest associations of countries of all the word... That's a sieve for immigrants, that's badely organised, with a bloody money who weakens us, and the country of Europe are so differents, they can't be unite...
The rich country of Europe help the poor, the poor stay poor, and the rich are less rich... I don't understood why France give a lot of money for the other country of UE, France must save up with the situation of the country... That's ridicul to loose money like that!...

Yes, Norway and Switzerland aren't, and they have a better sitation than the other country of Europe...

 

Politicians want be well see, they adopt the think of the majority, they don't find to stay neutral because they will not to have a better popularity like that!...

 

Not only Norway and Switzerland but also many countries in Eastern Europe.

I used to want my country in EU but today I don't support it, and you stated my reason above. I agree with what you say, especially for economic reasons I don't want Turkey in. The only thing that impressed me was the visa requirement lift. I think we're still fine out of EU, we're member of almost any European organization anyway, we don't neccesarily need to join European Union.

 

Well just to get popularity amongst some you get hostility of another... That's what he did. Also, was the law that punishes those who deny "genocide" idea of the majority? Did majority of French people support the law and more importantly why did The Constitutional Court of France repeal the law citing that it's against freedom of speech?

 

Alors Clarisse. What you said:

What do you understand about history?

When I suggested Jean Marie LePen had received 17% of the vote in a Presidential election you were dismissive of my point:

Here are the facts, in French, for you:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen

To help translate. That is the 2002 Presidential election. Jean Marie Le Pen received 17% of the first round vote and 18% of the second round vote.

French people voted for LePen before in their millions. They have done so again, for the same party, with his daughter as head of it and him sitting on every platform. Those French who oppose neo-Nazism should stop making excuses for the fascists who have voted Nazi AGAIN and start owning up to the fact that they have a real problem in their midst, which is that there are five million hateful extremist scum In France.

But at the very least can we please have less of these statements from you that other people don’t know their history?

But Jean Marie had 18% in 2002 didn't he now?

“Juden” is a German word. Why would you use a German word when denying that French people are Nazis? You should take care to translate "juifs" properly. But the presence of the German word for Jews in the French consciousness demonstrates the pervasive influence of Nazism and Vichyism on French people even today.

Incroyable! But your reasoning is that "If you say you love France then you are not a Nazi. The FN say they love France. So they cannot be Nazi".

Are you serious?

Let's look at why the FN are Nazi, in reply to your defense of their patriotism.

“Travail, famille patrie”. This was the motto of fascist Vichy and is the motto of the Front National. The links between Vichy, which was full of people who hated Jews and who believed they should be exterminated, and the Front National, are clear.

You can’t say you love France if you are a Nazi? So Robert Brassilach is not a Nazi, because he said “Vive La France” as he was executed?

Well the FN would agree. They admire Brassilach deeply, as does Jen Marie LePen. Who was Brassilach?

He was a Vichy collaborator whom today's FN love and admire. Brassilach saw himself and portrayed himself as a patriot and somehow this didn’t save him from Nazi sympathy. He said: “il faut se séparer des juifs en bloc et ne pas garder les petits”. This was a patriotic Frenchman who loved France.

This is a man whom Le Pen has tried to rehabilate, a man the Front National see as a great hero. He founded a newspaper “Je suis partout” that called for the death of leftists and Resistance fighters. He published the names and addresses of prominent Jews, and such lists were used by the Milice to kill them.

Le Pen even quotes him admiringly today (see link). So what does this quote above in French actually mean. Let me translate for those who don’t read French:

This is your French patriot. Someone who called for the extermination of Jewish children. Not a Nazi because he can say “Vive La France” on cue. In this way today is the Front National excused by its “opponents”.

http://www.lepoint.fr/politique/election-presidentielle-2012/quand-le-pen-cite-brasillach-18-02-2012-1432808_324.php

Le Pens’ fascism is clear:

http://www.adl.org/international/le-pen_new.asp

Le Pen was responding to journalists' questions about a reporter who had said he was violently thrown out of a National Front dinner by party security guards on Saturday for allegedly attending without authorisation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8262768/Jean-Marie-Le-Pen-signs-off-with-anti-semitic-comment.html#

The FN has a "security team", which is nothing more or less than the paramilitary organization that is part of all neo-Nazi parties. The FN has its brownshirts.

Please…people were anti-semitic because they were Christian? You are proving my point that parts of France are stuck in a pre-WW2 mindset.

I have never said anything against French progressives and I stated clearly that the majority of French people (Christians too!) were not anti Jewish. Vichy, and its supporters though, most definitely were.

Is this an excuse for Vichy? Hitler manipulated Germans. They take responsibility today for their mistake. 5 million French people repeat the mistake and others make excuses for them.

I saw this first on a documentary on Canal Plus in France. It stated how the incident was covered up by the French establishment and about how it wasn’t known in France, although it is now.

Here is what I am talking about, for your education:

Up to 200 people were murdered by the Paris police in 1961. Part of French history!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_du_17_octobre_1961