Germany mulls reintroduction of compulsory military service

If you think the war in Vietnam somehow made us more free, you are delusional. Apparently, you have no idea what America stands for.

 

I wasn't talking about Vietnam. I can see why you would want to use that as a deflection, though.

 

Then what ARE you talking about?

 

Did you not pick up on that from the post you responded to? Like I said: You (allegedly) live in a free country because people fought, bled and died to make it that way and keep it that way.

 

Ok, when did I not say that was the case? I don't think you are following the conversation. The question is whether it is better to have an all-volunteer force, or conscription.

 

You were talking about the fight against Communism being a waste. Considering how these regimes have played out, I think it's arguably worth fighting and dying to stop it for the sake of the survivors and future generations.

 

The fight against communism WAS a waste, and the people knew it. People would have been volunteering in droves if they truly thought there was a threat to America. That wasn't the case, so they were forced to keep the draft going after WW2 to get the bodies to fight unpopular and unnecessary wars. Do you truly feel America was threatened by Communism? Communism defeats itself. There is only like five communist nations in the world. Not even China is communist, except in name only. The way to defeat Communism is through economic means, not military. Vietnam did nothing to defeat communism. Out-spending them did. You don't need a draft for that strategy.

It is not our place to decide what ideology other countries follow.

 

We didn't betray him, we just didn't support him and his political goals.

 

What battlefield did millions die fighting communism on?

 

You're wrong on many counts

1) The U.S. did NOT continue the draft after World War Two. It was discontinued and the restarted near the beginning of the Korean War. I know because my dad was drafted and sent to Korea.

2) Communism defeats itself? Yet in the Soviet Union it kept going for what 80 years give or take.

3 You do know that the U.S. had to have a draft to fight and win the Civil War and the World Wars? We're those wars not worth fighting either?

 

It wasn't a waste to Vietnamese, same as our war for independence was not a waste to those who fought it.

And no, you can't necessarily defeat Communism economically. Look at North Korea still holding out after all these years of poverty. Communism both inspired and embodies the dystopia of Orwell's 1984, especially as we see it there. It is a modern totalitarian regime that has an unending grip over the people living under it.

And finally, while the shortening of life spans in war is tragic and best avoided if possible, there are also times when enough people will consider the risk to be worthwhile. And it is just shortening lives. We all die sooner or later anyway. We are mortal no matter what. Those who put their lives on the line in war are saying that they are willing to risk having a shorter life to protect their home, family, culture, way of life, and above all the future for those who survive and come after.

And one more thing. Avoiding a war today does not mean war will be avoided later, and in fact there may be more war and more death later in exchange for not choosing to fight today. I bet the Americas would have been a lot bloodier, for instance, had they remained entirely under European control. We might have seen ongoing territorial conflicts not unlike how the Europeans fought each other in the millennia prior. The English and French might have been duking it out here for years to come if not for American independence.

 

A two year stint would, of course, be better. Especially if it was supplemented by two weeks per year of refresher training such as they do in Finland. Lastly, they won't all be needed for front line service but could easily take over a lot of behind the scenes jobs like transportation, food services, quartermaster corp, clerks, etc ..

 

Dayton, the draft continued into the mid 1970s.

 

prove it

Read down to the post WW2 era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

 

Exactly. Would there be United States without the draft? Had it been totally voluntary during the revolutions, many people might have chosen to follow the events from a distance as opposed to participating.

"The conscription of American citizens into military service, commonly known as the Draft, has been used in six major wars: the American Revolution, the Civil War, World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and Vietnam."

 

That isn't what you said. You said whether the U.S. engages in unnecessary wars depends on how people enter the military. My point is that the U.S. engages in unnecessary wars when there are conscripts and when the military is all volunteer. Why and how people enter the military has zero to do with what you said.

The last time the U.S. went to war out of necessity was December 7 1941 when the empire of Japan attacked the U.S. Navy at Pearl Harbor. Since then we have been involved only in wars of choice rather than necessity. That is true when we have a draft and when we do not. I hope that helps clarify things for you.

I should mention that the "war on terror" was not really a war in my view. It was a police action aimed at destroying terrorists who had flown airplanes into U.S. infrastructure. I believe that happened when our military was all volunteer so there were no conscripts involved.

 

He is correct. The draft ended in 1973 4 years after I completed my draft responsibility.

 

Vast majority who served in Vietnam were volunteers, and the threat of communism was real. USSR was expanding, China was already communist, Cuba went commie, Czechoslovakia was invaded and taken, walls were being built. The idea of worldwide communism was not without merit. Of course later the Vietnam war was all about not losing, rather than winning, and in the end we just gave up, and it became clear the dominoes didn't' fall.

2/3 of US servicemen in Vietnam were volunteers (and 70% of the casualties) AND 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted, and that time we were actually attacked

A higher percentage of Americans volunteered for Vietnam than for WWII

 

over 3 million died in Vietnam, including soldiers and civilians on both sides.

 

Are you sure they were even a slight majority? I'm not. There were almost 2 million people drafted into the Army during the Vietnam war, including me. I don't know what percentage served in Vietnam but there were a lot. The other branches of the military didn't draft to my knowledge so you would need to consider that. All branches served there but only the Army had conscripts. Is there something wrong in your view with conscripts? Drafted soldiers served well, I can assure you from personal experience.

 

That is a major issue that our current system doesn't solve; how to get the upper class participating in the defense of our country.

 

less than 60,000 Americans though

 

Form what I read earlier, 2/3 were non-draftees, but looks like it depends on how you look at it. What does "drafted to Vietnam war" mean? Does it count if you were drafted and spent the time arming B-52s in Thailand, or does it count only if you were on Vietnamese soil? If you include everyone who were part of the war effort in the general area, then the 2/3 is accurate, but looks like most of the folks on Vietnamese soil were draftees, which tends to suggest that volunteering might get you a safer assignment in Thailand. I have a feeling many of the guys stationed in Thailand might actually have enjoyed it. Booze, drugs, women......

*STATISTICS FOR INDIVIDUALS IN UNIFORM AND IN COUNTRY VIETNAM VETERANS: *
9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam Era (August 5, 1964 - May 7, 1975).
8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war (Aug 5, 1964-March 28, 1973).
2,709,918 Americans served in Vietnam, this number represents 9.7% of their generation.
3,403,100 (Including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the broader Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters).
2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan. 1, 1965 - March 28, 1973).
Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964.
Of the 2.6 million, between 1-1.6 million (40-60%) either fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.
7,484 women (6,250 or 83.5% were nurses) served in Vietnam.
https://post3legion.org/Vietnam_Statistics.pdf

Marines were drafted. I have a friend who was drafted to the Marines and he served in Vietnam.

No, quite the opposite. Read my posts earlier in this thread.

 

I value all human life equally, American or otherwise. And 60,000 is still very, very high. That is almost 10 times the number of US soldiers that died in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Even if you could care less about non-Americans, 60,000 is WAY too high for a war that gave us absolutely nothing for the high costs.

 

Covid killed 20 times more Americans in 2 years than Vietnam did in 10 years, but that's another story