Hard Core Catholicism

If he spoke out, he would have endangered the Jews he was already helping. The Vatican was surrounded by a fascist ally to Germany and it is only by a thin thread of diplomatic immunity that soldiers didn't storm Vatican city. History has vindicated the Pius's decision. He did speak out at given opportunity, but he kept it subdued lest he risk even more lives. I'll take history's judgement over haters like you anyday.

 

To be a Christian we always allow ourselves to be pin to the wall before we will react, I guess that is the Christian way we want to resolve everything through reason, force is the last resort.

That is how Islam was able to seize and cleanse Middle East of Christians.

 

It may have escaped your notice, but I don't hate the Catholic Church.
I even think your line of thought is worth considering and may roughly have been the line of thought the Pope was following. On the other hand: Italy is and even was more so then a hotbed of Catholicism. Mussolini would have probably found it hard to muster enough soldiers willing to risk their eternal salvation for the sake of storming the Vatican. And even in Germany Hitler's influence over German Catholics minds might have been smaller than the Pope's.

 

Hitler hated Christianity and persecuted the Churches.

You Mean Hitler Wasn’t A Priest?

quote: Hitler was blunter still on other occasions. "It is through the peasantry that we shall really be able to destroy Christianity," he said in 1933, "because there is in them a true religion rooted in nature and blood." His countrymen would have to choose: "One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

quote: Polish Christians felt the full force of the persecution, as historian John Morley reminds us. "In Poland, both Jews and Christians were objects of Nazi oppression and manipulation." The clergy were a chief target: "In West Prussia, out of 690 parish priests, at least two-thirds were arrested, and the remainder escaped only by fleeing from their parishes. After a month's imprisonment, no less than 214 of these priests were executed... by the end of 1940 only twenty priests were left in their parishes — about three percent of the number of parish priests in the pre-war era." The toll of murdered Polish priests would rise into the thousands; their Protestant counterparts (though a much smaller group) fared no better, with many members of the clergy perishing in the camps.
The Rutgers site's presentation is entitled "The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution of the Christian Churches," and it notes a deep hatred of Christianity throughout the higher echelons. "Important leaders of the National Socialist party would have liked to meet this situation [church influence] by complete extirpation of Christianity and the substitution of a purely racial religion." Their assault was massive: "Different steps in that persecution, such as the campaign for the suppression of denominational and youth organizations, the campaign against denominational schools, the defamation campaign against the clergy, started on the same day in the whole area of the Reich... and were supported by the entire regimented press, by Nazi Party meetings, by traveling party speakers."

Some more Hitler quotes.

Goebbels' diary, 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay."

Speer quoting Hitler: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

Historian Alan Bullock quoting Hitler: "I'll make these d**ned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible.... This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews." and "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity.... The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."

Hadn't you heard, Pol Pot was a Communist and an atheist.

 

An outright lie. Admit your error or, if you prefer, expose yourself as a liar.

quote: At the end of the war, Pius XII was hailed as "the inspired moral prophet of victory," and "enjoyed near-universal acclaim for aiding European Jews." Numerous Jewish leaders, including Albert Einstein, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, expressed their public gratitude to Pius XII, praising him as a "righteous gentile," who had saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had served as the Israeli Counsel General in Milan, and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors who owed their life to Pius, provided the empirical basis for their gratitude, concluding that Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." To this day, the Lapide volume remains the definitive work, by a Jewish scholar, on the subject.

LINK

Slobodon Milosevic, who was an atheist, was a mass murderer.

 

Gosh, I've heard these same sentiments about Christianity from many of the members of this forum. Interesting...

 

Indeed there were good Catholics. There are good people everywhere be it Islam, Catholic or Christianity.

This does not excuse the tendency of the Church to dabble on the dark side. Especially its leaders.

It was not just German Catholics . .it was the Church of Rome at the helm.

If you want to real some really nasty stuff look at what the Croatian Catholics did to Serbia during the war.

The war in Yugoslavia was the Serbs taking vengeance for these atrocities.

Croatia cry's boo hoo .. they are destoying our Churches and Nato came to the rescue and bombed the heck out of Serbia.

While I do not condone what Serbia did, it is understandable given what Croatia did to them during WWII.

It was religious genocide .. Catholics siding with the Nazi's and going after Orthadox Christians and Jews.

Not much of this made headlines during the war in Yugoslavia but the history is very well documented.

While there are some good Catholics here and there .. the leadership of that organization has such an anti-Chrisitian history that I can not take that seriously the claim that they represent Jesus in any realistic way.

 

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You are the outright liar .. this link is different from the original one you posted to which my comment was directed.

LINK
Slobodon Milosevic, who was an atheist, was a mass murderer.[/QUOTE]

Slobodon Milosevic was not even born until 1941. What does he have to do with the Genocide committed by Catholics against Serbs during WWII.

Duuoph

 

Are you now suggesting that there exists a distinct difference between Catholicism and Christianity?

Applying the rule of exclusion, it seems then that you are also saying that there are no 'good people' in atheism, as they are excluded from the list of those that you indicate as possessing good people.

 

Not at all. There is a distinct difference between people.

One can not generalize and say "all Catholics" are bad . .. all Christians are bad or all Muslims are bad.

Catholics are Christians but they do not represent all of Christianity.

 

What would be that one, singular "a" difference between people?

 

I sometimes type quickly .. obviously too quickly for the grammer Nazi.

My apologies, allow me to clarify.

There are differences between people. Not all Catholics are evil because the Church has an evil past.

 

I have asked you this question before but did not receive a response. What is the church?

BTW: That would be "grammar" Nazi. Now what is a grammar Nazi?

 

The Catholic Church was was obviously what was being referred to.

A "grammar" Nazi is what you see in the mirror when you wake up in the morning.

 

OK, Then you were not talking about "the Church". Got it.

Now there you are in error once again. When I look in the mirror in the morning, I see the reflection of a human body, but nowhere in that reflection is there to be found the term "grammar Nazi". You need to be more careful with your manner of expressing things. All the errors you are making, clearly shows the intense degree of ignorance that you possess.

 

Whatever you say Incorp ..

 

Still waiting for you to retract the above statement.

quote: At the end of the war, Pius XII was hailed as "the inspired moral prophet of victory," and "enjoyed near-universal acclaim for aiding European Jews." Numerous Jewish leaders, including Albert Einstein, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, expressed their public gratitude to Pius XII, praising him as a "righteous gentile," who had saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had served as the Israeli Counsel General in Milan, and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors who owed their life to Pius, provided the empirical basis for their gratitude, concluding that Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." To this day, the Lapide volume remains the definitive work, by a Jewish scholar, on the subject.

LINK

Admit your error or, if you prefer, expose yourself as a liar.

The article was written by Rabbi David Dalin, Ph.D.

More admirable Christians who saved Jews: They Must Never Be Forgotten: Priests and Nuns Who Rescued People From the Holocaust

 

Fine... above statement retractred ... Let me clarify.

There was no solid evidence in the link that post was responding to that the Church had done much to help regular Jews.

 

The exact same thing could be said about the Catholic church in WW2 and their involvement in Genocide of Orthadox Christians and Serbian Jews.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/paris-genocide.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Ustaše

 

Okay good.

I don't think that's true either. Do you admit that Pius XII saved 100's of 1000's of Jews?

 

Giftedone, you have all the rabid hatred of the Catholic Church of a Protestant reformer, only, unlike them, you are an intellectual mediocrity.

 

The article you linked to mentions Catholics who helped save Jews.

The Ustashi were Croatian nationalists inspired by a secular anti-Catholic, Ante Starčević, and devout atheist Mussolini.

And the Communists under atheist dictator Tito killed 100's of thousands.

example: The Jutarnji newspaper reported the Commissions find, in all it is estimated that there are 100,000 victims in 581 mass graves.[1] The commission's findings were used for the Reports and Proceedings of the 8th of April European public hearing on Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes organised by the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union (January–June 2008 ) and the European Commission.
According to the “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes" the killings were executed by the Yugoslav Partisan Army in 1945 and 1946

LINK

example: Mass Grave Massacre Ordered By Josip Broz Tito

 

Maximilian Kolbe

 

Indeed .. but the Church also actively participated in killing hundreds of thousands of Jews and Christians during the war.

Do you admit this ?