Hard Core Catholicism

Sticks and stones ..

 

You must not have read either article.. Let me help with a few quotes.

There is truckloads of evidence for this .. it is not a secret what happened.

Ask any Serb.. they all know because it was not that long ago.

This is why Serbs destroyed Catholic churches in the war in Yugoslavia.

These guys hate Croations and Catholacism and I cant much blame them.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm

Here is another link .. there is a ton of stuff on this.

Here is some stuff on wiki:

Not a very pretty picture and the Pope knew all about it and said and did nothing while his servants orchestrated Genocide.

 

No. Untrue.

Prove it.

 

No kidding there were some crimes against Croats after the war.

Paybacks a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*).

Are you trying to say that the Serbians should have shown the Nazi Catholic Croats that had committed mass Genocide on the Serbian people sympathy ?

 

You admit Pius XII saved hundreds of thousands of Jews. Good.

Gifted, that site you linked to is a ridiculous hate site obsessed with druids and UFO's. I'm afraid it can't be taken seriously.

The Pope has limited power. He can't stop every evil person. As you acknowledged he had tremendous success in saving Jews.

Communist crimes like those of Tito began long before the war. And remember Communism is an international movement. Aren't you aware of the millions tortured, starved, murdered by atheist Josef Stalin?

The Holodomor Memorial Website

 

Read the links on Post 177

 

Not hundreds of thousands, I misread your post, but yes the Church did save a fair number of Jews.

I gave you three sites. Shoot the message not the messenger.

There are specific examples, names of Specific People, many of which who were put on trial after the war, and these included high ranking Church officials.

You might as well deny that the Nazi's killed Jews.

Church members were actively involved, and the Pope knew it.

 

Why not hundreds of thousands?

quote: At the end of the war, Pius XII was hailed as "the inspired moral prophet of victory," and "enjoyed near-universal acclaim for aiding European Jews." Numerous Jewish leaders, including Albert Einstein, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, expressed their public gratitude to Pius XII, praising him as a "righteous gentile," who had saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had served as the Israeli Counsel General in Milan, and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors who owed their life to Pius, provided the empirical basis for their gratitude, concluding that Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." To this day, the Lapide volume remains the definitive work, by a Jewish scholar, on the subject.

LINK

Here's another Christian who fought the Nazis, Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer:

And you didn't answer my question: Aren't you aware of the millions tortured, starved, murdered by atheists Lenin and Stalin?

The Holodomor Memorial Website

 

You provided one broken link, one zany site devoted to druids and UFO's and a biased article from Wikipedia.

Some Catholics and other Christians committed awful acts in Croatia, but how about some balance?

quote: Goldhagen’s treatment of Croatia is similarly egregious. The slaughters committed against Serbs and Jews are well documented, and the collaboration of some members of the Catholic clergy is rightly condemned. But postwar Communist propaganda, now acknowledged by all reputable scholars to have been fabricated, is the original source of the allegations against Pope Pius XII and most of the higher–ranking Catholic clergy in Croatia. The Holy See actually filed several protests and papal interventions.

In October 1942, a message went out from the Vatican to its representatives in Zagreb regarding the “painful situation that spills out against the Jews in Croatia” and instructing them to petition the government for “a more benevolent treatment of those unfortunates.” The Cardinal Secretary of State’s notes reflect that Vatican petitions were successful in getting a suspension of “dispatches of Jews from Croatia” by January 1943, but Germany was applying pressure for “an attitude more firm against the Jews.” Another instruction from the Holy See to its representatives in Zagreb directing them to work on behalf of the Jews went out on March 6, 1943.

Croatian Archbishop Alojzij Stepinac, after having received direction from Rome, condemned the brutal actions of the government. A speech he gave on October 24, 1942 is typical of many that he made refuting Nazi theory:

All men and all races are children of God; all without distinction. Those who are Gypsies, black, European, or Aryan all have the same rights. . . . For this reason, the Catholic Church had always condemned, and continues to condemn, all injustice and all violence committed in the name of theories of class, race, or nationality. It is not permissible to persecute Gypsies or Jews because they are thought to be an inferior race.

The Associated Press reported that “by 1942 Stepinac had become a harsh critic” of the Nazi puppet regime, condemning its “genocidal policies, which killed tens of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and Croats.” He thereby earned the enmity of the Croatian dictator, Ante Pavelic. (When Pavelic traveled to Rome, he was greatly angered because he was denied the diplomatic audience he had wanted.)

On October 13, 1946, when the postwar Communist authorities tried to concoct a case against Archbishop Stepinac, American Jewish leader Louis Braier stated:

This great man of the Church has been accused of being a Nazi collaborator. We, the Jews, deny it. He is one of the few men who rose in Europe against the Nazi tyranny precisely at the moment when it was most dangerous. He spoke openly and fearlessly against the racial laws. After His Holiness, Pius XII, he was the greatest defender of the persecuted Jews in Europe.

Despite the defense, as well as protests from Pope Pius XII, Stepinac was convicted and sentenced to sixteen years of hard labor. Due to protests and indignation throughout the democratic world, and Jewish testimony as to the good work he had done, he was moved to house arrest in 1951. Almost immediately, Pope Pius XII raised him to the cardinalate.

One of the first acts of parliament in the newly independent state of Croatia in 1992 was to issue a declaration condemning “the political trial and sentence passed on Cardinal Alojzij Stepinac in 1946.” Stepinac was condemned, declared the parliament, “because he had acted against the violence and crimes of the Communist authorities, just as he had acted during the whirlwind of atrocities committed in World War II, to protect the persecuted, regardless of . . . national origin or religious denomination.”

Ignoring all the facts, Goldhagen ends his grossly inaccurate portrait of Croatia by making another outrageous error: “Forty thousand . . . perished under the unusually cruel reign of ‘Brother Satan,’ the Franciscan friar Miroslav Filopovic–Majstorovic. Pius XII neither reproached nor punished him . . . during or after the war.”

Actually, the so–called “Brother Satan” was tried, defrocked, and expelled from the Franciscan order before the war ended. In fact, his expulsion occurred in April 1943, before he ran the extermination camp (April–October 1943). For Pius XII to have punished him “after the war” would have been difficult indeed. Goldhagen must be unaware that this renegade priest was executed by the Communists in 1945. Many other Croatian priest–collaborators were also punished by the Church (though Goldhagen overstates the number of such priests). All of this is well documented in the archives of the Franciscans, the Croatian archives, and depositions regarding Stepinac’s beatification.

Once again, Goldhagen has attempted to indict Pius by telling the reader the very reverse of the truth. This is explicable only as a premeditated defamation of the wartime Pope and of Catholic people in general.

LINK

 

Well, just to get back to the topic of the thread...

I admit I have a hard time with forgiveness.

 

Well seeing that it says in the Lord's prayer "and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" you should maybe pray for God to help you with that problem. I know it's not always easy to forgive, but once you've managed you'll feel better. Bearing grudges eats people's souls.

 

Forgive me if I am skeptical about claims on a Catholic Website about the Pope.

All three links work fine: none is "devoted" to UFO's not that it would matter as long as the message is valid.

The other is from a about a book written by a prof on the Genocide written in 1961 and published by the American institute for Balkan affairs.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/paris-genocide.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Ustaše

You have not refuted one of the claims made by these websites.

Avro Manhattan: "The Vatican's Holocaust", on page 35.
The caption under the photograph reads (quote):

A mass execution carried out by the Ustashi at Brode [near Vukovar], early in 1941. Nazi troops were looking at some of the victims.

The Nazis, who for a time were posted in Croatia, were so horrified at the Ustashi atrocities that they set up special commission to investigate them. The Orthodox Church of Serbia, in fact, appealed directly to the Nazi General Dukelman to intervene and stop the Ustashi horrors.

The Germans and the Italians managed to restrain the Ustashi while they were under their supervision. When the Nazis left Croatia, however, the Ustashi multiplied their atrocities, unrepremanded by the Government. Since the later's policy was one of the total elimination of the Orthodox Serbian population via forcible conversions, expulsion, or straightforward massacre

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/heap.html

I read through your link, it is unfortunate that the fellow does not reference anything he says. The fact that it is a Christian website doe not help much.

Even so .. even your Catholic apologist link claims that the Catholic Priests were involved in the Genocide in Croatia ??

Not sure what could possibly be more convincing than that.

Most of the conciliatory actions of the Vatican happened later in the war when the tide was turning.

Even as late as 1943 the Pope was cozying up to known Genocide perpetrators.

yeah ... publically the Pope is trying to put on a good show . but privately he is blessing the most horrific humans that have ever graced the planet.

Then .. the Vatican helps this guy escape after the war

This is a guy that is claimed to be worse than Hitler .. used to keep a wicker basket of cut out Serbian eyes on his desk .. and felt it was the mark of a true hero to be able to cut a baby

Seems the Vatican was playing both sides of the fence.

 

I disagree many Catholics, including the Pope and Stepinac, at great risk worked to save 100's of thousands of Jews.

He was a notorious Catholic-hater.

Hardly he was protesting against the brutality. His tactics worked as we've seen, he saved 100's of 1000's of Jews.

Fevered wartime propaganda? Do all Italian correspondents always tell the truth?

Why don't you acknowledge the heroism of Christians like Aloysius Stepinac?



quote about Stepinac: On October 13, 1946, when the postwar Communist authorities tried to concoct a case against Archbishop Stepinac, American Jewish leader Louis Braier stated:

This great man of the Church has been accused of being a Nazi collaborator. We, the Jews, deny it. He is one of the few men who rose in Europe against the Nazi tyranny precisely at the moment when it was most dangerous. He spoke openly and fearlessly against the racial laws. After His Holiness, Pius XII, he was the greatest defender of the persecuted Jews in Europe.

LINK

 

And you didn't answer my questions:

1) Aren't you aware of the millions tortured, starved, murdered by atheists Lenin and Stalin?

The Holodomor Memorial Website

Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words

You seem to only want to condemn Christians, isn't that bigotry?

2) Why do you say Pius XII didn't save hundreds of thousands?

quote: At the end of the war, Pius XII was hailed as "the inspired moral prophet of victory," and "enjoyed near-universal acclaim for aiding European Jews." Numerous Jewish leaders, including Albert Einstein, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, expressed their public gratitude to Pius XII, praising him as a "righteous gentile," who had saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had served as the Israeli Counsel General in Milan, and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors who owed their life to Pius, provided the empirical basis for their gratitude, concluding that Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." To this day, the Lapide volume remains the definitive work, by a Jewish scholar, on the subject.

LINK

 

More about Stepinac.

quote: Croatian Archbishop Alojzij Stepinac, after having received direction from Rome, condemned the brutal actions of the government. A speech he gave on October 24, 1942 is typical of many that he made refuting Nazi theory:

All men and all races are children of God; all without distinction. Those who are Gypsies, black, European, or Aryan all have the same rights. . . . For this reason, the Catholic Church had always condemned, and continues to condemn, all injustice and all violence committed in the name of theories of class, race, or nationality. It is not permissible to persecute Gypsies or Jews because they are thought to be an inferior race.

Astounding heroism! Risking everything to save the mistreated. He was a true Christian.

LINK

 

There is no way Anansi that you can deny the clear ideological and physical involvement of Catholic institutions with gross injustices over the years. Instead of denying most of this history, you should instead state your case as you have done, and then point out the fact that every group has their ups and downs. Presently you seem hell bent on labeling everything bad in history as irreligious in its motivation which is just counterproductive.

 

Humor .. you completely ignored every piece of evidence presented to you.

That you would try an deny the Crimes of Pavelic is denial of the of the Holocaust.

Methinks there is not much point in going further.

 

Not at all! I spend a great deal of time trying to convince Christians that their support for the occupations - in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine, etc. - is wrong.

 

I think this is unfair Gifted. I asked a serious question. I didn’t deny Pavelic committed awful crimes, I only questioned one particular crime which lacks hard evidence. Some Christians betray Christianity and commit hateful crimes against ethnic groups perceived as the enemy. Such crimes should always be condemned.

You still didn't answer my questions:

1) Why don't you acknowledge the heroism of Christians like Aloysius Stepinac?

quote about Stepinac: On October 13, 1946, when the postwar Communist authorities tried to concoct a case against Archbishop Stepinac, American Jewish leader Louis Braier stated:
This great man of the Church has been accused of being a Nazi collaborator. We, the Jews, deny it. He is one of the few men who rose in Europe against the Nazi tyranny precisely at the moment when it was most dangerous. He spoke openly and fearlessly against the racial laws. After His Holiness, Pius XII, he was the greatest defender of the persecuted Jews in Europe.

LINK

quote: Croatian Archbishop Alojzij Stepinac, after having received direction from Rome, condemned the brutal actions of the government. A speech he gave on October 24, 1942 is typical of many that he made refuting Nazi theory:
All men and all races are children of God; all without distinction. Those who are Gypsies, black, European, or Aryan all have the same rights. . . . For this reason, the Catholic Church had always condemned, and continues to condemn, all injustice and all violence committed in the name of theories of class, race, or nationality. It is not permissible to persecute Gypsies or Jews because they are thought to be an inferior race.

Astounding heroism! Risking everything to save the mistreated. He was a true Christian.

2) Aren't you aware of the millions tortured, starved, murdered by atheists Lenin and Stalin and Tito?

The Holodomor Memorial Website

Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words

Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia

You seem to only want to condemn Christians, is that bigotry?

3) Why do you say Pius XII didn't save hundreds of thousands?

quote: At the end of the war, Pius XII was hailed as "the inspired moral prophet of victory," and "enjoyed near-universal acclaim for aiding European Jews." Numerous Jewish leaders, including Albert Einstein, Israeli Prime Ministers Golda Meir and Moshe Sharett, and Chief Rabbi Isaac Herzog, expressed their public gratitude to Pius XII, praising him as a "righteous gentile," who had saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust. In his meticulously researched and comprehensive 1967 book, Three Popes and the Jews, the Israeli historian and diplomat Pinchas Lapide, who had served as the Israeli Counsel General in Milan, and had spoken with many Italian Jewish Holocaust survivors who owed their life to Pius, provided the empirical basis for their gratitude, concluding that Pius XII "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." To this day, the Lapide volume remains the definitive work, by a Jewish scholar, on the subject.

LINK

 

A sample of the Jewish testimonies included in The Myth of Hitler's Pope:

No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII. Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America

In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed through, the generous assistance of the Holy See...was decisive and salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews.... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance. Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania

The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion, which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world. Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel

I told [Pope Pius XII] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.... We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church. Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel's first foreign minister and second prime minister)

LINK

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, actually converted to Catholicism and chose ‘Eugenio’ as his Christian name, in gratitude to Pope Pius XII for his decisive action on behalf of the Jews during the war.

 

You should try and find a non Catholic source.

That said, I do not deny that the Pope did some good things.

Helping Pavelic escape was not one of them.

There is far more evidence for Pavelic presiding over killing of hundreds of thousands of Orthadox and Jewish Serbs, and Catholic Priest involvement, than there is for the Pope helping 700,000.

Perhaps the Catholic church has changed its ways over the last couple of centuries.

This does not erase a thousand years of human suffering caused by that organization.

Sure there were good men, and women, who helped folks along the way.

The point is that the institution itself is tainted and scarred.

The RC Church set itself up as having the authority of Christ/God. This is the "awfull horror" and ultimate blasphamy referred to in Matt and Daniel.

This institution has defield the name of Christ in both deed and word.

Time to call a spade a spade.

 

Gifted, what exactly are you trying to prove with Justinian? What are you talking about? The Catholic Church or the Byzantian Empore?

 

I know you didn't mean to paint in such a broad stroke. Christians are very much divided on our foreign policy doctrine. Oh yes, and we don't occupy Palestine. I'm sure you knew that and it was just another oversight.

 

And we have been spending a great deal of time, efforts, money and lives to convince Muslims that they need to stand up against their own enemies, they need to defeat Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbullah and all other Islamist that have hijack Islam and made Muslims look really bad.

So far slowly but surely it is bearing fruits, Libyans are now free, Afghans are now free, iRAGI-kURDS are now free, Iraqis are now free and for Palestinians they have been recieving millions of aid money from us but so far they have fail miserably to defeat or contain Hamas. Egyptians, Syrians, Yemenist, Iranians and now hoepfully Pakistanis will rise up and step into the plate and join us we don't mind standing at the back and let them take the lead role in liberating themselves as long as they start standing up for justice, democracy and freedom.

 

RECALL NOTICE

This is totally amazing. Be sure to read it. Talk about clever and to the point!

Never heard it put quite like this before
RECALL NOTICE:

The Maker of all human beings (GOD) is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.

This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.

This defect has been identified as "Subsequential Internal Non-morality," more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.

Some of the symptoms include:
1. Loss of direction
2. Foul vocal emissions
3. Amnesia of origin
4. Lack of peace and joy
5. Selfish or violent behavior
6. Depression or confusion
7. Fearfulness
8. Idolatry
9. Rebellion

The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.

The Repair Technician, JESUS, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.

The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.

Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure.

Next, download ATONEMENT from the Repair Technician, Jesus, into the heart component.

No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control

Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (BEST Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.

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P.S. Please assist where possible by notifying others of this important recall notice, and you may contact the Father any time by 'Knee mail'!

Because HE Lives!