Herman Cain Believes That If You're NOT Rich Then It's YOUR FAULT!

Indeed, I do. I support smaller government and decentralization of control.

 

The collective provides the capacity to achieve that which cannot be done alone.

 

When we talk about money for the poor we are talking about sustenance, not wealth. When we are talking about money for the rich, we are talking about wealth.

 

It is only limited by our own ingenuity and endeavor. Look at Branson, he is reaching out to outer space now.

Yes they can if they do the things it takes and are willing to do those things and even take risk.

As far as the bottom I don't believe that is true but then even the middle class most simply are content to not do the things necessary to become one of the top 1%.

I engage in my wealth building with others of course, and then of course I save and invest and build wealth.

 

It becomes concentrated amongst the older of us. When you are young you make income and have little wealth, you are spending it on your house you kids etc. Yes you should start saving even then, I certainly did and we have educated our grown kids to do the same. As you get older you make more income and you begin to save and build wealth but you are still primarily an income earner and your resources come from your income. When you retire your income goes down but you have accumulate wealth, wealth you now live on. So yes wealth gets accumulated by individuals and the total wealth is held by those who have accumulated it.

So what, how does that prevent you from doing the same?

 

We aren't on a gold standard and if we were the value of it would simply go up, but as I said we have several people who are reaching out to space now.

The value of my collectable guitars goes up without any additional labor.

No, I exchanged some of my wealth for one.

No I exchanged some of my wealth for one.

No the government taxes my wealth to build them.

Is there a point here somewhere?

 

Branson couldn't get to space alone, could he? Even then, wealth is not infinite. We live in a finite reality.

No, they cannot. Not all of them. Not everyone. Everyone cannot be wealthy and as more wealth is accumulated at the top, that leaves less for everyone else.

Since you're so certain of it, why don't you explain what it is that anyone can do to become wealthy. It clearly must be simple if anyone can do it if they just work harder, sacrifice more, and have the will to do it.

But the wealth you build doesn't exist in a vacuum. The conditions in place that allow you to build wealth don't solely exist because of you.

 

Just as there is NO limit on opportunity,
just as there is No limit on the amount of wealth available,
there is NO limit on the excuses available for failure.

 

You live in a finite reality. There are ends, or "limits" if you will. I'm not making excuses. You are making inaccurate assertions and I am correcting them.

No matter how much you want to dwell in the fairy land of theoretical possibility, reality dictates that not everyone can be wealthy.

Theoretical physics can prove that you can suspend a 2 ton elephant over the edge of a cliff with it's tail tied to a dandelion.

 

You're talking about a different "class" of wealth than I am. One does not accumulate the kind of concentration of wealth that is independently influential on government policy and industry working for a wage and paying off a mortgage for 15-20-30 years. I don't begrudge you a thing. I am not looking to raise taxes on you. I am looking to reign in our government and wrest it from the control of those with the kind of concentration of wealth that is independently influential.

Does that make sense?

 

That wasn't the point. There is finite amounts of resources.

That is not entirely true. The value stays pretty much the same, though inflation gives the appearance of value going up.

I have a few nice old guitars myself. In particular a Guild semi-hollow body electric and a Guild acoustic both from the late 60's. Surely, over time, as they become more rare, their value goes up, but that is because there is a limit on supply. Still, there was labor required to create those guitars. There was labor required to extract the wood, to process the materials, etc. It wasn't created by the ownership of Guild alone.

Yes, the point is that we are not merely individuals working towards our own goals in our own interests. We are ALSO part of a collective of individuals with shared interests. It is not an either or scenario. We need to account for the needs of individuals AND the needs of the whole of society. Right now, we aren't accounting for the needs of the whole.

 

You keep trying to put lame words in my mouth. Nowhere, no time have I ever hinted everyone can be wealthy.

But all times everywhere in the USA, those with the drive and ability CAN and WILL be wealthy. And at no one's expense except that individuals own sweat and labor. Is that a large percentage of the population? No its always a very small percentage of the population. I'm not filthy rich, but I'm much more comfortable than most. I spent many years balls to the wall going for it, and had a massive heart attack. I tried to keep going after that and accurately assessing the situation, I had to admit that I no longer had the necessary energy. I got tired where I never did before. I didn't have the concentration to overcome any obstacle like I had before. So I had to look at the 'big picture' and decided that I was as far as I was going to go and it was time to enjoy what time I had left. Its over 11 years and I'm still feeling fine. But I still know, in the big game, I'm on the sidelines. But the only thing holding me back is me. SAME as everyone else that stops at some point and "SETTLES."

 

I did not put words in your mouth. My contention was that not everyone can be wealthy. Not even everyone with the drive and ability can be because there is not limitless wealth to go around. I understand that wealth can be created but there are not limitless resources. My problem is not with people accumulating wealth. I don't blame you for doing the best you can for yourself and your family and I commend you on your success as well as the success you have witnessed in your son. This isn't about wealth accumulation. There are those that create wealth and do so in a way that is healthy for society. There are also those that hoard wealth and use their comparative advantage to stifle competition and prevent others from accumulating wealth. That is the problem. Those interests use their disproportionate advantage to dominate our government corrupt it to their advantage which is contrary to the interests of the nation.

 

I understand that you BELIEVE that there is a finite amount of wealth. But you are wrong. All the wealth created by computers, did not exist before computers. All the wealth created by cell phone did not exist before cell phones. A simple example, low tech. At one time smokers were prevalent in our nation. Zippo has a cigarette lighter. It was superb quality, worked all the time, even in high winds. And it has an absolutely lifetime guarantee. No strings. If it EVER breaks send it in the fix it free and return it to you free, forever. What broke was the hinge on the cover. They'd repair that and replace the internal parts with new parts ALL new. FREE. Ronson, Colibri shared a bit of the market place. Bic came along with their plastic disposable lighter, as well as their plastic disposable pen. They made billions. So an even more convenient product was introduced, plus the number of smokers is constantly going down, quitting, or dying off. Zippo is making more money now than ever, and the refillable pen and other disposables are doing fine [Sharpie] Computers, cells, Bic and thousands of other products all created new wealth, they did not take a part of the FINITE wealth you think exists. Wealth is not like oil, it doesn't get used up and gone. Its more like energy, you change its form but its still there and we have no idea how much is available. To our human ability to see, energy and wealth are infinite. That in no way suggests that the amount of debt is infinite, just wealth.

 

It doesn't take money to earn money, but it does take discipline to put it aside rather than spend it. One does not need to invest all that much to retire very comfortably.

Or, you could do like those who grow up with wealth - you find someone who is a mentor to lend you a lawnmower, or you rent one or borrow the neighbor's. If you want to be successful, ask yourself what successful people do.

Keith Ferrazzi writes a great deal about this in a couple of his books. He is the son of an unemployed Pittsburgh steel worker who did everything he possibly could to put his son in an upscale private school. What Keith learned, and openly shares, is that rich people don't stay that way because they have money to start with; they stay that way because they build strong relationships and mentorships to help each other in business and life. You can do the same in your own small business through chambers, organizations, and training in referral marketing.

 

Rhetorical garbage. The "collective" doesn't provide anything. It can't, because it's not a thing that exists in reality. Individuals provide things.

 

Take a peasant from 19th century England and put him in any town or city in the US today and he will probably be agape at the vast amount of wealth that each and every person holds. Homes with running water, electricity, communication to the entire world, virtually unlimited access to entertainment, abundant food of endless variety, short work weeks, days off during the week, vacations, abundant, basic health resources available 24/7 at local drugstores and supermarkets. The list is endless.

In fact, everyone can be wealthy in comparison to where we are today, but the desire for wealth is limitless and so some will accumulate wealth by creating it for others, some will continue to work for income rather than wealth, and some will seek to steal it from others and set up organized criminal rings called "government" that exploits the difference between those who create and take risks and those who toil.

 

Well yes I guess you could say the Universe is finite, so what? Even on this earth we are no where near expending our resources nor at the end of who much wealth is to be created.

Not that is true, the value goes up as it gets older and rarer and more in demand. I just bought another yesterday, brand new, but it will increase in value in about 5 years and go up from there.

Yes and more collectors and fewer available and intrinsic value.

Yes and that labor was paid for on initial purchase.

Yes we are, and the economy does best when each individual acts in their own best interest. You should read some Milton Friedman.

I share some interest with some and not so with others.

Here it is put so well

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The "needs of the whole" are best met when individuals act in their own interest to take care of their needs, else someone else gets to decide what our needs are and how they will be met.

 

I saved from my earliest employment, started an IRA the day they came into existence, sign up for every 401k available and that continued with my wife when I married along with our various emergency accounts and ready cash accounts we if the A/C goes out or something.

My wife works at a brokerage so when each of our kids reached their twenties and either joined the military or began working she sat them down and they signed their automatic withdraws into their brokerage accounts. Now ten and twenty years later while they are still young they see what is the about the equivalent of a months pay being made by their accounts. They are seeing how their money is making them money and how that will only increase with the magic of compound interest.

Of course their worry is that later people who did not do as they did will see what they did and now be jealous and will try to get the government to tax it from them.

 

Simply because new wealth can be created, that does not mean that the capacity for wealth creation is infinite. The capacity for wealth to be created does not exist in a vacuum. If there were not consumers to consume Bic's disposable lighters, there would not be any wealth created by Bic. If there were not breakthroughs made in plastics, a petroleum byproduct, there would not be any disposable lighters. I don't have a problem with Bic. I utilize both Bic and Zippo products. I don't have a problem with wealth creation. Wealth creation benefits everyone in general. This isn't about wealth creation. It's about the disparity of wealth between the haves and the have nots...mainly with the extreme concentration of wealth at the very top of the ladder that uses their wealth to wield undue influence on the financial, governing, and industrial apparatus to maintain and consolidate their control of wealth to the detriment of the capacity of others to create wealth.

 

I have no interest in taxing you more. In fact, I feel that you are already over taxed. You are over taxed because of the marriage of big business to government and the resulting big government for big business paradigm that has resulted. All government spending trickles up.

I do believe that government is necessary. I do believe that the size and scope of the Federal government has to be enough to protect the rights and interests of the American people. The problem is that the national government is unduly influenced by interests that exist on a supranational level and thus is influenced to seek and agenda that is supranational in scope, which doesn't always account for the interests of the nation.

 

Of course the collective exists in reality. Society exists in reality. Society is the collective. It is the recognition of the individual by society that makes the protection of individual rights possible.

The collective provides things, too.

They, the individual and the collective, both exist and both have needs and rights. Surely, the collective is nothing without the individuals that make it up. Surely, we will not all agree on everything and will disagree on many things. But we will always have collective interests.

 

If wealth was infinite, it would have no value and would be obtainable by everyone. The quality of life is growing but still has a limit based on technology and resources. Since it is based on resources and resources are not infinite, it is safe to say that the quality of life will reach a limit and begin to fall as resources dry up.

 

Whatever excuse gives you peace, go ahead and use. Means nothing to me.

 

I don't see how someone could disagree, your not rich because you didn't have the ambition and a good enough head on your shoulders to succeed in life. We are given the opportunity, but few actually try to pursue it.