Is Jesus divine?

Yep. Lewis forgot the possibilities of Jesus simply being mistaken or people making up things about him later that he never actually said about himself.

 

Yes, four young LDS Missionaries (2 male, 2 female) telling me about their religion.

 

If Jesus was with God in the beginning (I'm setting aside the fact that Christians believe he IS God, not just that he was WITH God), then why did God say "THIS DAY I have begotten you"? Also, small correction, but I can't find ANY quote from Jesus where he claims to be the "only begotten son of God." You appear to be thinking of John saying that about Jesus. I don't see him saying it about himself.

 

I'll take the bait, Yardmeat. Here is an example you might ponder. John 15:5- I would encourage to read as far as you can but in verse 8 "Phillip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." "Jesus answered, don't you know me, Phillip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father?" Read on....
I can not really explain it to you. It is there and you must be convicted in your own heart. Read it fully in its context. Read it without a preconceived notion.

Of course we also had Jesus in the Garden when the Temple priest were looking for him. John 18:4-11. When Jesus asked whom do you seek? Jesus of Nazareth they responded. Jesus responded I Am he. I can find other places in scripture where Jesus said "I Am" . To Jews those were sacred words because Moses asked God in the OT, "What shall we call you". God replied "I Am". Those words were sacred and Jesus used them freely. There are plenty of others that will try to discount these accounts but that is up to the individual. Your choice.

 

I addressed that in another post. "Mere Christianity" is C.S. Lewis's work on his objective account as to why he and others should accept Jesus. Written to WWII English fighter pilots as they went about their deadly mission. (Actually, most of it was a radio broadcast.)

 

But that deviates from your previous claim. And, also, you seem to think that this is Jesus claiming that he is the Father . . . which all Trinitarian Christians reject. I'd guide you to the fact that the Bible also talks about Jesus's followers being one with him just as he is one with the Father. So if this means that Jesus is the Father, it also means all Christians are the Father.

But "I am" is something all of us say every day. No, this doesn't mean he's saying he's God, and certainly not God the Father (which, again, all Trinitarians reject). Plus, when asked during his trial if he was claiming to be God, how did he respond? By pointing out that the Hebrew scriptures call lots of people elohim.

 

Oh but the Bible WAS written. God is active in HIS efforts to reach us but it must be our own decision. You point out C.S. Lewis. Have you read "Mere Christianity" or "The Great Divorce"?

 

It's not a bad book at all. It's just that the particular argument we were discussing was complete nonsense.

 

C.S. Lewis also wrote "The Great Divorce". No, a lot of his writings were written as an image of his spiritual take on God's Word. This book is an idea of what hell actually is. Not to be taken literally but an image of what it might be. Personally, what Jesus said about hell may be literal but it may just deliver the contrast between "separation from God for eternity" and "Eternity WITH God and all the blessings He want to reveal to us". Personally, I have no concern about hell. I have received His mercy.

 

That's up to you of course.

 

Yes. Well, up to me and logic. And logic says his argument doesn't' measure up here. The only way to accept it is to lower critical thinking into oblivion. But, yes, people are free to empty their thoughts and accept this as an argument. Those who prefer critical thinking will continue pointing out the flaws.

 

When a man marries a women in the eyes of God they are one flesh. When a believer sincerely accepts Jesus, His Holy Spirit dwells within him. When you see a believer, hopefully you'll see aspects of Jesus.....but that is not to say you see Jesus. When you look at a husband you do not see the wife. However Jesus said "when you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Of course you can do whatever you want. What are you Mormon or JW?

 

I'm neither. Which denomination do you belong to that teaches Jesus is the Father? All major modern Christian denominations reject this.

 

You suggest my argument is illogical and I will suggest yours is fleshly discourse. We must agree to disagree.

 

I'm doing a study right now on a book "Finding the Right Hills to Die on" by Gavin Ortlund. It studies denominational thinking. I was raised in the Quaker Church but it had no effect on me. Came to Christ after much exploration in the 70's during the "Jesus Revolution". Read the Bible exclusively before ever going to Church. Then I attended an Interdenominational fellowship. After that I did attend a Pentecostal Church for a short while. I did not approve of the emphasis they provided. Since then, I have been active once again in an Interdenominational fellowship for over 25 years. This Book I pointed out has really opened my eyes to discrepancies and strengths of various denoms. It does give a better understanding of Church History.

I would adamantly disagree with you that the majority of Christian denominations at their origination didn't believe that the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son were One person and three different aspects. Just as the Sun gives both light and heat. Three aspects, one element. There are Creeds such as the Apostle Creed , the Nicene Creed and others that spell this out. Most Denominations have their roots in these creeds.

Usually when someone asks me my denomination, I just say "the Body of Christ". Jesus first desire is that we are not divided.

 

Then you are incorrect. No, Trinitarians do not believe what you just described. It is universally reviled as a heresy in Trinitarian history. Trinitarians (the majority of Christians) do NOT believe that God is ONE person. They believe God is THREE persons. All three are God, and there is only one God, but they are distinct persons. The Son is not the Father. The Father is not the Son. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. You are adamenatly disagreeing with the vast majority of Christian denominations. You are, in fact, promoting modalism.

 

Sounds like you are straining a nat and swallowing a camel. I agree exactly with what you state. Why quibble? That is not a Hill I am willing to die on. Do you enjoy division for the sake of division because you state a doctrine in a slightly different manner? I apologize if my stating things slightly different offends you. Do you see it as a reason to cut off fellowship with me? The book I pointed out opened my eyes as to why there are over a thousand denominations.
If you don't mind, I am going to use this example tomorrow in my Bible study where there are Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists and at least one Presbyterian.
It is not a Hill any of us would die on.....and there are so many others.

 

I quibble because the verse you used to support your claim was one that, if it means what you says it means, would mean that Jesus is the Father. Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, Eastern Orthodox, Methodists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals (aside from a tiny handful of Oneness Pentecostals) all reject this. All major denominations of Christianity reject the idea that Jesus is the Father. It was a heresy condemned by death for much of Christianity's history.

 

Sorry, I just don't get it. Perhaps it is because I've had no "professional training". God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit contained. Can you accept that? "God became flesh and dwelt among us" as in Phillipians 3? I'm sure he contained the Holy Spirit as well? Can you teach me my error? God in three persons, blessed trinity?
My wifes Great times 5 grand dad was burned at the stake for translating scriptures from Latin. John Rogers also comitted a heresy for which he should have been burned? See Foxes book of martyrs.
It just seems to me you are one for dividing the Body......I must move on.

 

Religion is blind faith. Christians affirm the Bible is Gods word without any proof. Islam believe the Qu'ran is the right 'Bible' without proof. Mormons believe they BoM is true without proof. Jehovahs Witnesses believe their interpretation is right with proof. And yet each one claims they are right. Each one has indoctrinated disciples. And each has a different 'contact' with a 'God' that cannot be seen and is unknowable. 'Experiences'.
Bobby Azarian Ph.D.
Mind In The MachineResearchers used fMRI to image the brain’s electrical activity while spiritual feelings were evoked in participants inside the scanner. Nineteen young devout Mormons, 12 males and 7 females, who were all former full-time missionaries, were chosen because of the intensity of their routine religious experience—known as “feeling the spirit.” A key part of being Mormon involves identifying this experience in oneself and teaching this ability to new converts. Followers of the faith make decisions based on these feelings and view them as a way to communicate with God. This made them the ideal choice for a study aimed at uncovering the specific neural circuits involved with religious experience...........................................
The tasks were highly effective, as many participants were actually brought to tears during the session. Detailed first-person assessments showed that feelings of inner peace and physical sensations of warmth were common. Overall, the feelings evoked were described as similar to those experienced during a typical intense worship service.

 

Sayings of Jesus on the cross...He didn't seem to know he was a god.

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.Luke23:34
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Luke23:43
Woman, behold thy son! and Behold thy mother! John19:26–27
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46 Mark15:34
I thirst.John19:28
It is finished.John19:30
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.Luke23:46

 

Ok yeah You have told me that before. Are you comfortable telling me what you guys talked about before the experience?

 

Just read Phil 3. Jesus humbled Himself and became a man obedient to the cross. He knew where he was going.. He showed us how to relate to the Father. Just like He showed us how to pray.....The Lord's Prayer. It is a model for us

 

How do you reconcile that with John 1:1?

 

Well it's all made up or hearsay, but Matthew and Mark were written earlier than John.