Is Papandreou Right to Let the Greeks Decide?!

I agree with you. I think they economic system is not working for the majority and it's down to greed.

There are a lot of issues though, it's just too big. It's a really dangerous situation in many different ways. Janpor, you can't seriously still support the EU after all this. Do you think Merkel's push for sufficient powers to govern Greece or Italy and "help" them out of this mess? It's really raising the global government issue to some extent. If the EU just took over, it could resolve all of these issues for all of these poor, inept countries.

Strange how that works, isn't it. Almost like it was intended to turn out this way. Problem being the people don't want to ruled by the EU or to lose sovereignty.

As to Greece, it's not that long since the UK had to go to the IMF with begging bowl in hand. There is no shame attached to what has happened to Greece.

There may be some "credit" (yes an economic pun) attached to the EU approach if compared to the attitudes of other countries. It tried to raise the living standards for everyone by moving less affluent countries like Greece up the economic ladder. How does US approach the poorer countries on its borders? By using the cheap workforce, using the countries natural resources to bolster its own profits and living standards, but whining and all but blockading the border. Is US inclusive of less affluent countries? Or does it only look after its own.

I think the EU has had it, but there are clever people working on it so who knows? I still think it has an important and worthwhile goal and I hope its next incarnation learns from the attempts at political over-domination and the lack of financial scrutiny of new applicants...

 

I've been to Greece a few times. Not all Greeks are hard working, responsible and reliable and tax evasion is widespread. Maybe that's a consequence of high taxes. Exporting Greek goods at rates set for German goods has not helped. Nor have corrupt officials and businesses creaming off money meant for infrastructure projects and leaving them unfinished and worthlessly crumbling and all paid for by European tax payers. None of this is exclusive to Greece, but the Greeks seem less able to keep a lid on it than other countries. The deregulation of the banking sector has not proved to be our politicians' finest policy either!

The hypocrites of the European Commission have nothing to be proud of. Even now they are still living in a dreamworld, insisting that "more Europe" is the answer.

That's true, but the UK's situation was very different to the crisis we face now. The UK loan was repaid in full a long time ago and the UK economy, not being directly linked to other economies as the Greek economy now is, did not threaten a world financial crisis.

 

I really love this line (my emphasis on 'family oriented'):

'I can honestly say that Greeks are hard working, family oriented '

I remember that's what they always said about the Mafia, as if that fact alone exempted them from every hideous crime they committed. Is Greece the only country in the world that is family oriented, and does that fact alone exempt it from fiscal prudence? I believe the Italians are also family oriented, but that hasn't stopped them from stumbling down the steep fiscal abyss, not too far from the one inhabited by the Greeks.

Maybe they could arrange a joint fiscal strategy to dig themselves out of their self made fiscal hole, over a plate of minestrone and ouzo,of course!

 

What you mean is, it's ok for the UK to need help but it's not ok for Greece.

It's ok for Greece. Is providing economic stability through tough times not one of the points of the EU's existence? If the economic crisis hadn't blown up at this time, Greece would not be causing a problem for other economies and the EUrorats would be on their case to bring the Greek economy up to scratch but it wouldn't be crashing the Eurozone. It's not their fault in any way. The EU should have known the state of the Greek economy beforehand and it no doubt did know. Therefore it is likely there were other reasons for allowing Greece to join or they accepted the risk. Having allowed Greece to get into this mess, it wouldn't be acceptable to do anything other than assist them (and the Eurozone) now, if you are going down the road of continuing the fiasco that is the EU.

 

Just typical of a spoilt child. Just blame everybody else for your own fiscal ineptitude and welfare greed. The free welfare ride is over. The rest of Europe, especially Germany which has been carrying your excess welfare sucking habits, will no longer tolerate it.

If you can't abide by the EU fiscal rules, then get out!

 

The UK's bailout by the IMF in 1976 literally cost a total of £11billion (at today's currency rate). Not a huge deal if you think about it and considering UK needed a bridge loan to last a few months.

Greece on the other hand has received several "bailouts" since 2008.

Not Stability but a Free Trade Zone is the reason why the EU exists today. Of course if there was no economic "crisis" Greece wouldn't be an issue. Nor would any of the other PIIGS. But that's the issue, these countries borrowed alot of money during PEAK times under the idea that nothing bad could ever happen. It's down right reckless Keynesian on the PIIGS part, but it also had to be done or none of these countries would have met the rules of being members of the Eurozone. Ireland and Greece had to spend billions on infrastructure and liberalizing their economies to become formal members of the EU. Germany and France didn't have to do that nor did the UK. It was the "third worlds of Europe" that was saddled with that, which was a choice by the people.

No rational economist from the IMF, ECB or even the individual Governments could predict a blow up like this as they don't forecast based on worst case but rather within a range of the previous year. The majority of economist assume growth or little to no growth. With that said any Government can fudge the numbers. Ireland didn't and was pretty good up until 2002 then they went on a spending spree which still boggles my mind and like Greece they were burden with picking up the tab for German, French and UK banks who used the countries like Casinos.

Now with that said Greece was in the worst shape possible coming into the EU but Greece did some really questionable accounting tricks with the help of US and German banks, then hosted the Olympics. It made them look solvent when it came time to apply for the EU and Yes, others looked the other way. They figured that with strict budget rules it would be fixed. But they never had the power to enforce it.

So I'll say it again as I've said it before.. EU should have never happened.

 

What are you on about?

 

Which bailouts?

To promote economic and social progress, a country can be expected to look for some support if the economy goes belly up.

Perhaps the country would not be able to take full benefit from membership if the infrastructure wasn't in place.

I've never heard you say that.

Merkel is looking for the power to enforce it. Entertaining as it would be to see the Germans try to impose order on the Greek economy and people and although if they were able to surmount the insurmountable task it would benefit the people, I hope she doesn't get that power, as EU has too much power and not all for good.

However, if they have power and a responsibility to prevent any country being a continual burden, that risk should have been detected in Greece beforehand. A country which willfully avoids taking budget advice to rectify that situation might normally be expelled but it is an EU aim to improve conditions, so what is the point if they are not going to assist countries like Greece? And these are special circumstances.

 

The first started on April 23 2010 in which Greece got a €8.5 billion loan from the IMF/EU (as part of the first package of €45 billion), if this 8.5 billion wasn't given to Greece it would have defaulted that week.

Next came May 2nd 2010 in which the package was increased to €110 billion. Then came the idea of a the 50% cut Banks would take for another €100 billion. So officially €210 billion bailout for Greece since 2010. The total money spent so far equals close to Greece's yearly GDP.

Now this doesn't even include ECB buying Greek debt in the secondary market, much like what's going on with Italy. Italian Bond auction "failed" and the debt that was issued to day comes with a 6.29% interest rate.

LOL, it was started for Free Trade. When countries are economically tied peace follows making it a byproduct. The EU can rewrite history all they want, but it was Free Trade.

Greece and Ireland are were the two further places outside of Malta that didn't have direct rail lines or highways to "main land Europe". For Greece it requires going through the Balkans or the Adriatic Sea. Ireland is an Island that requires a Plane or Ferry over the Irish Sea to even get to the UK which is connected to main land Europe through the Chunnel. So infrastructure isn't an issue per say since every (*)(*)(*)(*) thing that comes from Germany, France or even UK comes from shipping for flying. Built/Rebuilding rails could have been done over 20 or 30 years instead of pushed in a 10 year period.

You know (*)(*)(*)(*) well I want Ireland out of the EU.

Merkel is looking for a job outside of Germany and it requires her to be the savior of the EU. Politically, I don't know how she's survived so long in Germany. With that said the power she's looking for is the kind of power that will destroy the EU either way.

This issue is not unique. US is filled with States (Countries) that are having budget issues due to borrowing too much. Europe has reached a point that the US has reached and that's the reality that you can't control a system without absolute power. It's come down to exploring the Evil of a dictatorship to save itself.

 

Viv slainte,

The problem can be summed up in two ways:

1. Greeks want to remain in the Euro but they don't want an austerity plan.

This is not surprising as they are citizens of a country that

2. Expects the sort of welfare even the welfare-spoiled Germans dream about but think that tax evasion is socially and morally acceptable.

Sorry to stereotype, but you're a Scot. You know you get what you pay for.

 

Free trade was just the excuse sold to the public. From its inception, European integration was about political and monetary union. The preamble to the Treaty of Rome states:


"- determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,
resolved to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,
affirming as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvements of the living and working conditions of their peoples,
- recognising that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition;
- anxious to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less-favoured regions;
- desiring to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade;
- intending to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;
- resolved by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts...".

 

The Treaty of Rome means nothing in this discussion since it was the Treaty of Paris in 1951 that set the goal to tie French and German Steel and Coal industry together. Literally making it impossible for Germany or France to go to war with each other again and removing the London Agreement of 1949 (aka International Authority for the Ruhr).

 

Doesn't mean political and monetary union was not the aim even then. As British Labour PM, Clement Attlee, knew in 1950. When he was urged in parliament to take a positive approach to the proposed coal and steel community, he said "We are not prepared to accept the principle that the most vital economic forces of this country should be handed over to an authority that is utterly undemocratic and accountable to nobody."

The Labour Party was split on the issue until the 1980s, but the government sent a pamphlet to every household in the country, stating that "there was no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty" and other groundless pro-Common Market propaganda. The man who did the urging in 1950 was later leader of the Conservative Party, and later still, he assured the British public on television that "there are some in this country who fear that in going in to Europe we shall somehow sacrifice independence and sovereignty", he went on to say "these fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified." He later admitted in interview shown on Sky that he'd known he knew exactly what membership would entail. British bankers were also in favour of monetary union in the 1930s.

Monnet had also been a firm believer in monetary union long before 1949, but of course Hitler got in the way.

As far as British eurosceptics are concerned the EU has been a castle of lies from the early days to the later "in Europe, but not run by Europe" and "taking back powers" stuff of more recent times.

It was always about political and monetary union.

 

All that yammering doesn't account for the fact that Germany would toss you all overboard if it came down to their survival despite how many times Merkel speaks publicly. It's the sick countries of Europe (France, Spain and others) that want to keep the EU alive. Politically speaking Merkel is out next election and Merkel is politically weak in Germany and has had some pretty rough times recently. She can try and justify her position in her "new" plan for the next EU treaty but the Germans would dump the PIIGS and anybody else dragging down the Euro.

In the end it comes down to how valuable the Euro is and if the Euro declines which it will if there is no bailouts or even if there is bailouts ((*)(*)(*)(*)ed if you (*)(*)(*)(*)ed if you don't situation) and because of that there is no monetary union and never was. It was those sick countries who wanted the strength of Germany to bring up currency values but didn't want to act get their house in order. A stronger currency means you pay more on bonds as you can't inflate your debt away like the US does or any of those other countries did before the Euro.

It's also why the UK never gave up the Pound. UK didn't want to give up the strength of the Pound even though it cuts down on exporting. So again, not a monetary union.

 

I agree. Doesn't change the fact that political and monetary union was the aim from the start.

The UK didn't give up the pound only because UK politicians were held back by public opinion. The Conservative Party's leadership was forced to agree to a referendum on joining the euro under pressure from James Goldsmith's Referendum Party (having already signed us up to Stages 1 and II of monetary union). It's the one measure they cannot bring in deceitfully. The British masses might be a bit dim about politics, but even they'd notice their cash didn't carry the Queen's head anymore! I'll say it again: British bankers had favoured monetary union since the 1930s.

 

Mmmm....they want to stay in the Euro.....?

Pray tell me....why do they not allow an election.....frightened that the Greek will do an Icelandic on them perhaps?

And tell those bankers exactly what they are going to get??
Oooh....and where is the referendum...?
Austerity...is American and UK dictatorship through the back door!
Ooooh....and was it not King John who had the testicles removed from those same bankers forefathers???
Perhaps we may re-invent the same penalties for the same robbing thieves as King John thought so appropriate!
Please feel free to correct me!

Regards
Highlander

 

I was in Athens last week, youngs, people ... were very pestimistic. For a country like Grecee sure it is difficult to pay this kind of debt on the other hand as a person who experienced a situation in his country IMO it is not as difficult as it seem.

Turkey was in this kind of situation at the starting of the 2000 after the Marmara Earthquake. And people was pestimistic and how now Papadimos came, Kemal Dervis who is a Turkish from wrold bank came to the head of the economy. We critisized at the starting than we saw it is working. in 2002 with the AK party (Erdogan's party) went on to follow this strict tax system and economical rules and in a short time economy and growing up range increased rapidly. Now Turkey is only country which doesn't have gap in economy and has god growing up range.

The ''key movement'' of the Erdogan goverment different than Dervis was not to accept the ''IMF'' standby agreements and try to find solutions with internal sources and to stop the bribe (before all politicians were stealing in their term they allowed to only their people to steal). Their mistakes were privatization of big public factories, to focus %100 to grown up and not to reflect welfare to peoples income. They agreed with public officers, engineers with special contracts which demaged rights of them. We work everyday 08:00-18:00 in public and in private untill 19:00-20:00-21:00 many times. Ministers are talking about a law to start to work in 06:00 which is unacceptable!!!

This made us to pay the debts in 10-15 years (in 2016 Turkey will kick the IMF out) on the other hand many investments such as fast train&Metro projects, 3 nucleer power plant project (i am not sure this is clever), addition&revisions of all highways, hospitals, schools, Universities and Airports to all cities.

But milions of people complain to be slave with special contracts of state, some teachers commit suicided not to be hired, still people collect food from rubbish, people die from starvation in East Turkey. We have huge taxes which is highest in Europe. For exampe the most expensive patrol in Turkey because we pay arond %60 of patrol to taxes for communication and internet as well.

Yes we have payed the debt rapidly and has the one of the biggest rating for Growing up in the wrold. But i would like to have a slower growing up rating and to pay the debts in a longer period. And i would like to see that we still have the one of the biggest steel factory, gas patrol plant in the hand of my country instead of Russians or Europeans or Turkis bloody booses. They sold these plants to 3 years profit amounth. I would prefer less people in my country searches the rubbish or die from starvation and not to be in 15. biggest economy. To be in G-20 doesn't make me more happy.

For Grecee i understand and support the youngs in their resisstance in their way. To accept the Europe's offer without discussing means for Grecee to loose everything. To work more is acceptable but to hire people, big stoppages in health, education are not acceptable. I still would prefer Greece to live instead of Turkey because it is still has a social state, people knows to enjoy the life, here people can't be part of the life because of working conditions lower incomes.

EU passport is a value for Grecee i don't beleive that to go out of EU will be clever while to turn Drahmi is not big problem, however as far as i know Grecee can't change currency without permission of Europe according to Lisbon Agreement. Lets see how Papadimos will act at the next, he has already big support hope he will not charge all debts to people.

Nowadays Grecee is alone, and all goverments want to charge all bad situations to Grecee to take out their responsibility. Grecee could start to saving from military consumes. They are tricked with a unexist Turkish - Greek war for many years.

 

The new Greek leader is an economist, isn't he? They are in for a miserable time then. They were poor pre-EU and now they will be poor within it.

Regarding energy in the hands of Russians and not Turks, power companies used to be government run in UK but were sold off to the private sector a few years back. People are now in a position where it's the biggest cause of misery and poverty and everyone is looking for ways to ameliorate electricity and gas bills. Meanwhile the power companies are making billions in profit per quarter. Utterly despicable fecking nonsense.

To the person who said tax evasion is the norm in Greece, it happens in most countries and global corp is focused on evading tax. Are you not concerned about global corp?

 

Have you noticed that Italy is now a dictatorship?

A fully fledged dictatorship, all with the help of the CEB and the IMF!

What's awaiting Greece, Spain, Portugal...the CEB and the IMF are also by default imposing technocrats above they're elected politicians!

What's awaiting Ireland?
Regards
Highlander