>>>MOD WARNING<<<Part 33 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

I agree with you. I have cited many of the same passages myself to show that the Salvation Formulation given by Jesus is based on works.

I is strange that Mitt agrees with your post. Last time I made the same argument he disagreed? Cant make up his mind I suppose.

 

Of of these are sufficient proof of God
The Bible
History
Universe
Science
But most of all in us the human race we are the irrevocable proof that God exist we are God's greatest creation through us God's existence is manifested.

 

Your understanding of the interpretation would have been alright and is basically what the early Jewish leadership are interpreting it except God came as Jesus Christ to let the Jewish leadership know and to correct their wrong interpretation. God is not about Jewish tradition and Jesus was very clear "My kingdom is not of this world"
Jewish tradition is Jewish tradition the problem they have incorporated it into God's words. That is why Christianity have no problem with the Tanakh we accept it wholesomely and in its originality but we do not accept the wrong interpretation of the Jewish leadership. Remember Jews did not reject Christ it was the Jewish leadership that rejected Christ. The leadership will do anything to stop Jews from accepting Christ including shunning any Jews from being a Jew for being a Christian.

 

It is based on works and faith not just works or just faith it is both.
After receiving God our faith must be cultivated with good works.

ames 2:26 that faith without works is dead
Proverbs 14:31
Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
Matthew 10:42
And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward."
Matthew 25:40
"And the King will say, 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!'
Matthew 25:45
"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

 

One does not have to receive God or even know Jesus according to the Matt 25 passage that you posted a small part of:

James 2 states that Faith without works is dead but he then talk about how Rehab the Prostitute was put right before God through works. Rehab had no "Faith" in God.

Regardless. Protestantism preaches "Sola Fide" "Salvation by faith alone". This doctrine has no works component.

 

An irrevocable answer has been given... to me.... and numerous other believers. Therefore, my ability to believe in the existence of God remains steadfast.

Previously you simply relied upon your own belief as an evidence ... now you have demanded an "irrevocable" evidence. So, in fact, you did alter the requirements, thus changing the goal posts.

 

Matthew 25:40
"And the King will say, 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!'
Matthew 25:45
"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

In Matthew 25 notice the last words it said "you were doing it to me"

It was Rehab's faith in the Jewish God that made her did what she did which is to aid the two Jewish spies by hiding them if the soldiers would have found them she and her family would have been executed. Rehab demonstrated both works and faith.

I know that the LORD has given this land to you and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. We have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

IMO there is a misunderstanding of Sola Fide to mean faith alone technically it means justification by faith not exactly by faith alone but there must be a justification for one to be save by faith alone. Example: a hermit monk who decided to live a reclusive life away from society away from that include the politics, the charities, the wars, the alms giving, the helping the poor etc. the monk all by him self in the wilderness meditating to be with God eternally this action is justification by faith.

 

And your understanding and ignorance of what I have quoted just shows your complete inability to understand anything about the Tanakh and Jewish beliefs.

You can't even distinguish between Jewish beliefs and Jewish tradition

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE TANAKH THAT REFERS TO JESUS THE CHRISTIAN MESSIAH.

'My kingdom is not of this world'. Where did Jesus say this? In Pilate's judgement hall. Who was there? Just Jesus and Pilate. Did Pilate write a book? Well we haven't any proof that he did. We have a book called the Acts of Pilate in which the images in Pilates halls are supposed to have bowed down to Jesus. Pity the Bible doesn't tell us that. Did Jesus write a book?
You've been shown time and again that the NT and even the OT are unreliable.

The Jews do not proselytise. In fact they make is very difficult for anyone to become a Jew. They believe that anyone following the Noahide laws (and you can look them up) will also get into heaven. If they shun Jews who convert to any other belief it is because they are a close knit family.
But then Christianity does the same thing. If a christian becomes an agnostic or an atheist they are 'bound for hell'
for rejecting Jesus.

Do you actually understand what you have posted????????????

If Christianity accepts the Tanakh ' wholesomely and in its originality' it must accept what was written and understood in 600BCE when it 'originated'. That is the interpretation I posted.

 

I've been warned off continuing with this.

 

Nothing is impossible for God to do, nothing that is contrary to His character and nature that is.

But why would He want to change existing laws that are orderly? The laws that He imposed on His universe are unchanging just like God Himself...He is unchanging.

We read in Scripture:

"Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow."---James 1:17 NLT

"God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?"---Numbers 23:19 NLT

 

So we can blame god for the millions of people killed because he created a world of earthquakes, floods, tsunamis and all the other disasters.
And the constancy of the laws of Physics of the Universe are beginning to be challenged. Don't ask me how, I'm not qualified. But I do read about scientific ideas when they appear. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100909004112.htm
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20120329-can-the-laws-of-physics-change

I'm not qualified to get involved in any argument. I just leave it for your reading.

 

Yes, because God can&#8217;t do all things. I mean it's not because He is unable to, that He is limited in power in any way. It is because of who He is in nature. There are guidelines that even God cannot step over. For example God cannot be God and not be God at the same time.

He cannot create another God from a creature that would be made equal with Himself. The secondary God would be derived from and dependent on the first so it would be finite. Since he had a beginning it could not be as powerful as its originator. One of the first requirements for being God is to be uncreated, infinite, eternal, and omniscient. So a created god does not qualify for the job description of being God.

He could but He already has his hands full with the one He already created...lol

Does He need to create another one only to duplicate the original one? I mean if He gives those beings made in His image again the gift of free will in that other universe it will only be a duplication of what is going on here...on God's green earth. So why would God need to do that?

No, why would He want to do that? He has already told us in Scripture of what is to come. There are many prophecies that have already come to past but not everything yet has come to past. So a change to plans at this point would make Him like a human...which He is not...in that He has changed His plans/mind...lol

Again let me repeat, God does not change, He is unchanging/immutable...it is His nature to be that way.

We read in Scripture:

"I am the Lord, and I do not change. That is why you descendants of Jacob are not already destroyed."---Malachi 3:6 NLT

 

You are not being ignorant of what you are claiming you are only wrong with your claim.
No where in the Tanakh that say it is Jewish tradition or Jewish beliefs this is only being claim and promoted by Jewish leadership.
The Tanakh which is the Old Testament for Christians has all clear reference that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and Jesus Christ himself reveal himself to be the Messiah the Son of God the God that the leadership of Judaism rejected because it challenge their authority their control over the Jews.

The reliability of the OT and NT is solid compare to the reliability of Jewish leaders interpretation of the OT or the Tanakh.
Jewish leadership have made the Words of God their tradition and their belief their own imposed restrictions is their own making not God's. That is why Jews did not reject Christ it was the leadership that would stop Jews from accepting Christ.
The church accept the Tanakh in its originality while Judaism have corrupted it with their injection of Jewish tradition and beliefs.

 

Show me the clear reference. Where does it mention Jesus? If there were a clear reference do you think people today would be disputing this. Many scholars today actually agree with what I say, and in one new Bible the margin actually quotes this.

You are unable to throw you mind back to 600BCE when the Tanakh was written. It was then that it was understood that Isaiah was referring to Israel as the suffering servant, that Isaiah was written for the time. They didn't start believing it 600 years later.

I REPEAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THE TANAKH REFERRING TO JESUS THE CHRISTIAN MESSIAH.

Until you study Jewish scriptures you will never come to the truth.

If you trace religions back far enough you will find that no religion is unique. They all rely on something misinterpreted from previous religions. Islam from Judaism and Christianity, Christianity from Judaism. Judaism is not a pure unadulterated religion. It is a mixture of previous beliefs and so on. Religion was formed in the mind of man who had no knowledge of the nature of the universe.

The reliability of both the Tanakh and the NT has proved sadly lacking. It is a book written by men and is subject to human error as has been shown you time and again.

I respectfully suggest you shake off the shackles of indoctrination and do some study - with an open mind.

 

In Isaiah ... the narrator repeated speaks of Israel as the suffering servant..

The Jewish Messiah was expected to be a warrior king like David who would rid them of the Romans..

You might want to read the Bible.

 

Wan Ren... Here are the Bible verses that refer to Israel as the "suffering servant".. No doubt you forgot about them.

 

What on earth do you think the Tanakh is. It is a statement of the Jewish belief. As the NT is of Christian belief.

You know, I have searched high and low in the Tanakh for the name of Jesus but can't find it. Perhaps you can show me where it is. Until that time I accept what the Jews say. After all they accepted it for 600+ and still do.

If you can claim that the Jews were wrong then equally Islam can claim the Christianity is wrong as Mohammed received his new message from the angel Gabriel. Can you prove otherwise?

By the way 'originality' does not mean what you are saying. The word 'originally' should be used.

Christianity does not accept the Tanakh in its original meaning. It cannot. It can only accept either its own interpretation, or the original interpretation of the Jews of the time. It has chosen its own interpretation.

What you, and Christianity, are doing is saying 'whatever happened 600BCE- whatever the Jews believed - we know better'. But you don't. You've taken 600 year old writings and changed the formula.

Ask most people today what they think of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. Most will tell you they think it is a great Love Story. That's the way they interpret it.

Well , they're wrong. It is one of Shakespeare's great Tragedies. And that's the way HE WROTE AND INTERPRETED it.
Whatever interpretation modern people put on it, it is Shakespeare's interpretation that is the original.

Get it?

 

Well, you could always try this one.
http://www.menorah.org/yeshname.html

 

Yeshua was a common alternative form of the name &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1465;&#1513;&#1467;&#1473;&#1506;&#1463; ("Yehoshuah" &#8211; Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period.

 

As an additional note, there is this little tidbit... be sure to study it closely... as it is truly revealing:
http://circumspectnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/TANAKH-Teachings.pdf

 

And you are the expert on ancient Hebrew?

 

Jesus Christ is God and when God came as Jesus Christ to reveal his Words John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Jews accepted him while a few led by the Jewish leadership rejected him. No where in the OT or Tanakh mention the Pharisees and the Sadducee are to be in charge of the Words of God. Scholars have all agreed in the historicity of Christ and the way Judaism have made the claim that you have been claiming. Back then the world thought the sun revolves around the earth, that the earth is flat until modern scientist revealed to us modern science there was resistance at first in end it was accepted the earth is round, planets revolves around the sun this analogy is the same with Christ early leaders of Judaism have wrongly interpreted the Tanakh and when Jesus came to correct them they rejected it but not the majority.

Isaiah was indeed speaking about the situation of Israel at that time there is no doubt about that Isaiah was also speaking about the coming of a Savior to free Israel of their situation.The difference was that the leadership thought the Messiah would be a warrior king and when it was God himself they were disappointed because they were expecting an earthly king not a Heavenly King.
Isaiah 7:14,
Isaiah 9:1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.
Etc. Isaiah 50:6, Isaiah 52:13, Isaiah 52:14; 53:2, Isaiah 53:5,
Isaiah 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Isaiah 53:7,8. Isaiah 11:10. Isaiah 53:7.

The reference about Jesus Christ is very clear in the Tanakh what is clear is that there is no mention giving the Pharisees and Sadducee the authority to reject God.

Jewish scriptures is not the Words of God it is the words of the leadership of Jews. Study and give credence to the Words of God not Jewish scriptures.

And that is why Judaism misinterpreted Words of God and when God came to correct them they rejected him. Christianity continues to research and study the Words of God while Judaism has made up their mind they have refused to accept any new revelations.

The errors are by men not God that is why the church has been very diligent in continuing to study and research the Bible, history and all its new discoveries and revelations compare to Judaism the leadership have shut the door to any new revelations.

The church has an open mind that is why it is refer to as Catholic meaning universal not Judaism for Jews only and not Islam submission.

 

The NT is about Christ not about a single nation or race. Jewish beliefs and tradition is about the Jews not about God. God is about the people and the Jews were a conduit later leadership of the Jews will make the Words of God to become their identity until the coming of Christ.

Excellent link thanks to Incorp;
http://www.menorah.org/yeshname.html

The church has preserved the original content of the Tanakh for all its worth accepting Jesus Christ while Judaism have change the meaning of the Tanakh to suit their tradition and beliefs.

 

Alternative name such as Jesus then? In other words Jesus name was mention in the OT or Tanakh weather as an alternate name or actual the bottom line is Jesus was mention against the claim that it wasn't.
http://www.menorah.org/yeshname.html

 

And I can show you the opposite view using Jewish scriptures. Do we need to go through it all?
http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

Note. In order to properly understand these verses, one must read the original Hebrew text. When the Bible is translated into other languages, it loses much of its essence. The familiar King James translation uses language which is archaic and difficult for the modern reader. Furthermore, it is not rooted in Jewish sources and often goes against traditional Jewish teachings. Modern translations, while more readable, are often even more divorced from the true meaning of the text.