>>>MOD WARNING<<<Part 33 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

If it will make you FEEL better.

 

No... are you? I do know that after the Babylonian exile most people in Palestine spoke Greek and/or Aramaic... Hebrew was pretty much a dead language up until 1948.

 

I'm sorry... engrossed in reading and research, I mistakenly cited an incorrect finding (link) for the information I wanted to pass on to you and others. The correct citation is here:
http://circumspectnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/TANAKH-Teachings.pdf

 

Submission is not a concept unique to Islam.. Christians pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"..... and teach submission to the will of God.

 

Never said I was and never inferred that I was. 'most people' would/could indicate an appeal to popularity especially when coupled with "Hebrew was pretty much a dead language up until 1948." Can you show evidence (documentation from an accredited source) that "Hebrew was pretty much a dead language up until 1948"?

 

And it isn't. The above is in contradiction of the basic Jewish belief 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.'
If anyone studies the above quoted website they will very soon realise the ....

From the website quoted

'Psalm 9:14 That I may shew forth thy praise in the gates of the daughters of Jerusalem. I will rejoice in thy JESUS?'

'When the great Patriarch Jacob was ready to depart from this world, he by the Holy Spirit was blessing his sons and prophetically foretelling their future experiences in those blessings. In verse 18 of Genesis 49 he exclaims, I have waited for thy salvation, 0 Lord! What he really did say and mean was, "To thy YESHUA (Jesus) I am looking, 0 Lord"; or, "In thy YESHUA (Jesus) I am hoping (trusting), Lord!" That makes much better sense.

'Let us remember that the angel who spoke to Mary and the angel who spoke to Joseph in his dream did not speak in English, Latin, or Greek, but in Hebrew; and neither were Mary or Joseph slow to grasp the meaning and significance of the NAME of this divine Son and its relation to His character and His work of salvation.'

He was there?

OH PLEASE> If you can't do better than that ...........................

 

Many Psalms are like the poetry of the Ugarit..

More about that here.

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

4. The Ugaritic Pantheon.

The prophets of the Old Testament rail against Baal, Asherah and various other gods on nearly every page. The reason for this is simple to understand; the people of Israel worshipped these gods along with, and sometimes instead of, Yahweh, the God of Israel. This Biblical denunciation of these Canaanite gods received a fresh face when the Ugaritic texts were discovered, for at Ugarit these were the very gods that were worshipped.

El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the &#8220;father of men&#8221;, &#8220;creator&#8221;, and &#8220;creator of the creation&#8221;. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament.

For instances, read KTU 1. 2 I 13-32 and compare it to many of the Psalms. Also, read Ps 82:1, 89:6-8mn!).

In 1 Kings 22:19-22 we read of Yahweh meeting with his heavenly council. This is the very description of heaven which one finds in the Ugaritic texts. For in those texts the &#8220;sons of god&#8221; are the sons of El.

Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.


snip

Ugarit experienced a very long history. A city was built on the site in the Neolithic period around 6000 BCE. The oldest written evidence of the city is found in some texts from the nearby city of Ebla written around 1800 BCE.

At that time both Ebla and Ugarit were under Egyptian hegemony, which shows that the long arm of Egypt extended all along the west coast of the Mediterranean Sea (for Ugarit is located in modern day Syria roughly dead east of the NE coast of Cyprus on the coast of Syria). The population of Ugarit at that time was roughly 7635 people. The city of Ugarit continued to be dominated by the Egyptians through 1400 BCE.

 

Thanks. Still the same result. From what I have studied of Judaism etc there are several problems. BUT it is hard sometimes to know just what was the position of a subject at particular point in time.

 

From what you have studied of Judaism, do you consider yourself to be the ultimate expert on Judaism or are your studies much akin to the understanding that some readers on this forum have on that subject? Is it at all possible that your understanding of that subject might be slightly biased?

 

Never said I was nor have I inferred that I was. Why do you ask? "most people"? Do you have statistics from a reliable source which will validate your claim that "Hebrew was pretty much a dead language up until 1948."? Do you have a means of validating that "most people in Palestine" "after the Babylonian exile" spoke Greek and/or Aramaic."?

 

Yes.. Aramaic was the linga franca of the day and Greek was the language of commerce.. The Greek cities of the Decapolis were cosmopolitan and prosperous unlike Jerusalem.

If you recall Israel opened Hebrew language schools all over Israel after 1948..

By the time of Christ the Savior Ancient Hebrew, in which the Law and the majority of the rest books of the Old Testament are written, was already a dead language.

The Jewish population of Palestine was speaking the language, common for that time for the Semitic tribes of Front Asia &#8212; Aramaic. Christ the Savior spoke that language as well. Those little worlds of Christ, which the Evangelists cite literally: "Talitha cumi" (Mark 5:41), "Abba," when the Lord addressed God the Father (Mark 5:41), the mortal howl of the Lord on the cross: "Eloi, Eloi, lama Sabachtani" (Mark 15:34) &#8212; these Aramaic words (in the Gospel of Mathew the words "Eloi, Eloi" &#8212; My God, My God) &#8212; are given in Ancient Hebrew "Ili, Ili," but the second part in both the Gospels is given in Aramaic.

When during the 1st and 2d centuries after the storms of the Jewish war and rebel of Bar Kochba, the existence of the Jewish-Christian communities ceased, the Holy Scripture in Hebrew disappeared from the Christian medium.

It was good for the Divine Providence that the rejected this Providence and by that being unfaithful to its main designation Jewish community would get the new designation, turning out to be the only keeper of the Holy Scripture in the original language, and despite its own will, would be the witness of the fact, that what is said by the Church of Christ concerning the ancient prophesies and prototypes of Christ the Savior and about the Divine Fatherly preparation of the people for acceptance of the Son of God, is not invented by the Christians but is the authentic verity.

continued.

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/bible2/language.shtml

 

The common language of the Jewish people was Yiddish... Otherwise they spoke Russian, Polish, French, German, Dutch, English etc.

Revival of the Hebrew Language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_Hebrew_language

 

I am not an expert. Even Rabbis disagree among themselves sometime. I have studied enough to know my way around.

As to my understanding being biased. I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a god or not. I have no particular bias to either Christianity or Judaism. As someone who once led a church and preached many sermons, did many studies in different churches and church groups, I think I know Christianity and the Bible fairly well. I just look at both and see the differences. What I do think is that there is no justification for the Christian claim that the Rabbi Jesus was prophesied in the Tanakh. A Messiah was certainly 'prophesied', but the events forecast are not fulfilled in Jesus as a Christian Messiah. In fact most prophesies in the Tanakh, and NT are not prophecies at all. Most are simply pointing out that when people continue on a certain path, consequences will follow. Some are really 'history' - written after the events.
Much of the Tanakh is simply myths and allegories. Something many religious scholars and followers are beginning to accept.

And it is well known the Hebrew slowly diminished after the Babylonian exile. Mainly because the majority of Jews either stayed in Babylon or scattered abroad. That was the reason for the Translation if the Hebrew Tanakh into what became the lingua franca of the time ' Greek'. Though Aramaic was used in certain areas.

Macabbees 1 which covered the period up to 135BCE was written in Hebrew, but very quickly translated into Greek. Only extant copies are Greek'. The Hasmonean period became a period of Hellenisation and Greek would have been used in communications with the world. Hebrew became a written language only, except in the Temple and Synagogues for reading the Tanakh scrolls and services. It was revived in 1948 when immigrants were expected to learn the language as part of their citizenship.

As Margot has said, and many people do not understand, 10 main cities of Palestine were populated mainly by the Greeks. This started as far back as Alexander the Greats era so Greek was well used. Jesus seldom ventured there. and Mark gets his geography wrong there.

 

Islam's interpretation of submission is different from Christianity. Islam's submission is absolute through Mohammed and the leadership of Islam.

 

It is not a contradiction to Jewish belief because Jewish belief is Jewish belief not God's.
You ask where the name of Jesus was mention in the Tanakh which ever way you want to interpret it the bottom line is your question has been answer the name of Jesus has been mention.

Thanks to this great reference by Incorp
http://circumspectnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/TANAKH-Teachings.pdf

It is clear that it was the leadership of Judaism that have kept God away from the Jews.

 

Jewish belief is not God's belief, but Christian belief is God's belief??? Do you ever listen to yourself?

 

A Messiah was certainly 'prophesied', but the events forecast are not fulfilled in Jesus as a Christian Messiah. In fact most prophesies in the Tanakh, and NT are not prophecies at all. Most are simply pointing out that when people continue on a certain path, consequences will follow. Some are really 'history' - written after the events. ..allegories. Something many religious scholars and followers are beginning to accept.


Yep.........

 

I have a problem with your source material. The website link you provided shows a page wherein this is found "Holy Fathers". The scripture plainly states that we (Christians) shall call no man "father". The term 'Holy' infers by definition that these people mentioned on that page should be granted special homage contrary to what scripture has stated. There is none that is righteous, no not one. Secondly, by selecting a specific religious order, you are showing a bias toward that one specific religious order. Thus diminishing its effect.

 

That is a good writing trevorw2539, however, it was not so impressive as to compel me to accept it as true. I will cede the issue of the Hebrew language having been revitalized, however even on that point, neither you nor margot2 have shown any official documentation that is not biased. The bias on your part is seen in your falling away from the 'church' in which you were involved at that time. While we are expressing opinions... you stated as your own self analysis that you think you know the Bible and Christianity fairly well, however,, as you might expect, my opinion of that analysis does not favor your analysis. IMHO, somewhere along the line, I think someone or some event which took place in your life that in effect caused you to put on a pair of spiritual sun glasses so as to obscure your perspective of Christianity and the 'Bible'. Just IMHO.

 

During what time frame? http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Yiddish
"
[h=2]Yiddish[/h] the language of some of the Jews living in Europe (including the USSR), America, South Africa, and Israel.
Yiddish belongs to the West Germanic subfamily of languages. It developed through the interaction of High German dialects with Semitic (Hebrew and Aramaic) and Slavic elements. It is written from right to left.
Yiddish began forming in the 12th and 13th centuries in Germany, where there were large settlements of Jews who spoke German in everyday life but used Hebrew words and locutions to express religious, ritual, family, customary, commercial, judicial, and moral concepts. Hebrew served as a source of a number of the conjunctions, prepositions, affixes, and vowel structures of Yiddish, in addition to expressions of figurative speech, such as epithets, similes, and metaphors. With the mass migration of Jews to Poland and other Slavic countries in the 15th and 16th centuries, Yiddish began absorbing Slavic words and morphemes. The combination of these morphemes with the German and Semitic created many words and word-formation models. The Semitic and particularly the Slavic influences have been especially strong in the phonetics and syntax of Yiddish. Spoken Yiddish falls into three principal dialects: Polish, Ukrainian, and Lithuanian-Byelorussian. The names of these, however, are arbitrary, since the boundaries of the dialects do not correspond to the borders of the respective territories. On the other hand, there is a single literary Yiddish.


[h=3]REFERENCE[/h]Fal’kovich, E. M. “Evreiskii iazyk (idish).” In Iazyki narodov SSSR, vol.1. Moscow, 1966.E. M. FAL’KOVICH"



A thousand years plus after the time of Jesus.

 

Read what I said to Incorporeal. The article is laughable. He is changing contexts and meanings to make his point.

 

Really? Be a little more specific and name the alleged meanings and contexts that you accuse me of changing. Show the postings where you BELIEVE that this happened.

 

I don't see in the quote of his statement any mention of "Christian belief". Where is that one found within that post of his that you quoted.

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/30029347?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

This says that the Hebrew spoken language actually died out 200AD. Using religious websites and studies we know it was declining much earlier. As I said one of the reasons for the Septuagint translation was the fact that the Jews had dispersed throughout the Middle East and integrated with other nations. To do so they had to use a spoken language that was common. Hebrew was not.

 

I didn't say you were changing anything. I was referring to the article.