Motorcycles

Try and stay focused on Motorcycles.I know there might be a temptation to veer off
on Cars.This is a TWO WHEEL thread.

 

Harleys come with conventional oil for engine break-in which is changed out at 1,000 miles. At that point it is up to the owner as to whether to use synthetic (recommended by Harley) or conventional oil. A Harley does come from the factory with synthetic oil in the transmission at least for the Sportster.

Of note conventional oil needs to be changed more often that synthetic which basically offsets the cost difference for those that ride a lot of miles. Conventional oil breaks down over time when compared to synthetic oil and conventional oil becomes "dirtier" faster because it accumulates burnt carbon particles from higher temperatures that don't occur with synthetics that have a much higher heat tolerance.

All-in-all I find that using synthetic is both better for the motor and costs about the same as using conventional oil but that choice is up to the person. Clean oil, regardless of type, ensures the life of the motor. If I used conventional oil I'd check it often because when it starts turning color it's dirty and needs replacement. I don't find any problem with synthetic oil becoming dirty from burnt carbon particles that can cause wear.

 

Color tells NOTHING about oil condition. There is exactly ONE way to know oil condition: lab analysis. Anything else is guesswork.

 

It costs more for the lab analysis than it does to change the oil. Dirty oil is easy to detect and "black oil" indicates "carbon" particles in the oil and carbon causes engine wear. Yes, using this criteria does lead to changing oil more often than other possible guidelines but it's better to change oil too often as opposed to not often enough. Most people ride to the "maximum distance" recommended for the oil but fail to understand that is based upon ideal riding and not heavy riding where loads are greater on the oil. Sort of like the recommended oil changes for cars that could be 5,000 miles for some oil being used in "light driving" conditions which is rarely something we do because stop and go city traffic is not "light driving" conditions.

So I'm a little more proactive than most in changing my oil because its far better to change it too often than to try and save a few cents by riding too long between oil changes.

 

We're talkin' engine oil.However metrics have a wet clutch so the engine oil is
also the transmission { gearbox oil }. Harley dealers go to great expense to instruct about
Break-in and first service.I've heard the spiel enough when visting Harley dealers.
Harleys use a Dry sump vs. the metrics wet sump.
They insist when you buy a new model that you come back for a First service at
500 miles which usually ends up costing a couple hundred dollars.A total waste of
money.They pretend to tighten ever nut and give it a through going over.Again ... it's
a con.I got the same B.S. spiel when I purchased my first Cruiser { Kawasaki Nomad }.
Used to be that dealers were banking on that first service.Where they pretend pulling the
spark plugs and inspecting tells them what they need to know.Spark plugs can last an awful
long time.They can also foul like within minutes when hooking up an aftermarket exhaust
and dialing it in too rich with a power commander.Yes a spark plug will definitely tell you
how rich or lean the bike is running.With Motorcycle mechanics making around $ 66 dollars
an hour vs. $44 an hr. just last decade,it is advisable to keep on eye on what they do.
For instance,when you ride in for an oil change they let the bike sit and drain for
30-45 minutes.They may charge you for that time when they do nothing.I've seen em pull
that crap.Plus with my kaw Nomad { terrible bike,that managed to win Cruiser of the year
in 2 motorcycle publications } my dealer used oil from a big barrel.had a big drum of oil
they used for motorcycles.No telling what kind of oil or quality it was.
Most dealers pull stuff and word gets around.Just listen to what motorcycle customers
say.There are 2 type motorcycle customers.The gullible sucker types and those who
aren't afraid to speak up and ask what's goin on.I know it's best to be extra nice to the
Service Mngr. because that a way,you feel they also be nice to your bike.But I've found
a lot of bigotry and snobbery amongst Service mngrs and what they train their mechanics
to pull.They usually in cahoots with one another.

 

Harley does not require a buyer to come back to Harley at the end of the engine break-in period (between 500-1000 miles). A person can do it themselves if they want to but they do need to keep documentation of the fact that they changed out the oil for warrantee purposes. The same is true for all warrantee required service. It does not have to be done by Harley but the person must keep records to show it was done.

 

actually, color tells you that the oil is doing its job. It does not tell you if it's breaking down but as Shiva said, changing oil is cheaper than a lab

 

Even if I had a liquid cooled V-twin I would run synthetic. That back cylinder needs all the help you can give it. Has anyone here who has a v-twin ever seen a thermo imaging done comparing the front and rear cylinders? I'd be curious as to the temperature differences. But, how would you do that unless you had a big shop fan blowing in the front of the bike

 

It's just a convenient ploy for Harley to make added moola.Show me where else a warranty
would make it mandatory that a person verify via dealer { or motorcycle shop } maintenance
records.I can understand that approach with an extended warranty where one pays
extra.That all work must be documented via records.
Plus the Big Harley dealer in the big city pulls the Dealer freight gig.meaning YOU the
buyer has to pay for the Dealer to ship in bikes to sell.That should be a form of fraud.
Why should the customer pay to have a dealer store their shelves.
I can understand dealer Prep.because Bikes come in loaded into crates and have
to be slightly assembled and tightened.That's man hours and time.
But a customer shouldn't be required to pay for the business expense of
Dealers stocking their showroom floors.Don't forget just 10 years ago Harley's in
my area were selling for on average $4,ooo over list.That was SOP in my area.
Because Harley's couldn't keep up with demand till about 2005 and could easily
get away with overcharging.it wasn't until about 2009 that I saw Harley's actually
discount certain models.When the newer Harley's came out and this one big dealer
had about a dozen V-rods from the previous year still on his floor,those bikes got a
$ 1,500 discount. But they wouldn't budge an inch on dealer Freight and Prep.
In fact,I remember just asking about it caused certain sales people to give a lecture
and walk away.I remember a guy asking twice,and the second time he was told he'd
have to leave the store.They got the owner { a real prick } and he started making a big fuss
and had his sales people escort the guy out. That same owner who had his first Harley dealership
just a few miles in town from my house had a really bad reputation for doing just that.
I thought maybe he might grow up when moving to the Big city and fancy huge new
place.He also had this one sales guys with like ZZ Top hair and beard.The guy was truly
nasty.Just mean and rude.Refused to even entertain talking price.You pay the price
on the sticker or get the Fuch out of the store.

 

By your "logic", I should change oil in my truck every day. (It turns fresh oil BLACK in less than an hour of running.) Most people (including you) change oil much more often than necessary.

 

You are correct.The rear cyclinder of a V-twin will always be slightly hotter.
That was especially true of my Honda VTX 1800.Of course I also was running
aftermarket exhaust { HardKrome Sideburners } and was running a little too lean.
But at idle I had the bike sounding like no other.It had a deep blub blub blub
with just the right cadence.it sounded like a Drag bike.However turning the throttle on
a metric { offset dual crankpin design } didn't do it justice.But at Idle it was tough.
Of course really twisting the throttle let it roar.
Those Sideburners cost like $ 600 bucks.But it was a full header.
I used a Techlusion module instead of the popular Power Commander.The techlusion was
a smaller unit and easier to fine tune.

 

What I still do after a ride when I get home is to park the motorcycle { I have 2 }
at the side of my house where a breeze is at it's finest.That way the bike cools down in
about a 1/3 rd the time.On a hot day,parked in the garage a bike will stay hot the entire
first hour.By parking it where a breeze can hit it,the bike is no longer hot
after an hour.Don't forget that heat is any enemy of an engine.That is why Harley's
have 50 weight.So they run cooler in the summer heat.
Of course a synthetic is not as gooey as a petroleum oil.And a synthetic also
starts easier in the cold.But a synthetic has additives which detergent out any crap like
minor carbon deposits.

 

A lot of misinformation or anecdotal information contained here.

The cost of shipping and prep is a cost of the motorcycle. It can either be itemized, such as Harley does, or it can be included as a component of the dealer cost of the motorcycle but either way it is an expenditure in getting the motorcycle on the dealer floor. To believe that other brands of motorcycles don't charge for the costs of putting the motorcycle on the dealer floor is rather naïve. Just because it's a hidden cost for other motorcycles doesn't imply that it's not included in the retail price of the motorcycle.

Harley does not require that a "shop" document owner work on the motorcycle for routine maintenance such as oil changes. Simply keeping the dated receipts and a maintenance record by the owner is more than adequate. As I recall there are even pages in the MOM (Motorcycle Owners Manual) for recording this information.

Might I suggest shopping around if a local dealer is a jerk-wad. A compliant can even be filed with Harley-Davidson Corporate if a customer is treated rudely by a dealer. I've always been treated very well by Harley dealers including free loaner motorcycles when I had to leave mine for service even if that only took a few hours for example.

When I purchased my XL 50 it was discounted by about $1,000 (part of which was waiving the delivery and prep charges), a new jacket and helmet was thrown into the deal, plus there was 0% interest on the few thousand dollars I financed.

Sometimes I wonder if it's the customer that is the problem as opposed to the dealership. If a person walks in the door with an attitude they're probably going to receive a rather rude response to it.

 

Only partially true. The oil color reflects the inside of the engine. If the oil changes color to black when it's changed in indicates that the inside of the motor is dirty with contamination and needed to be flushed. All of that "black" is burnt carbon that will cause wear in the motor. As I mentioned conventional oil will "burn" at a lower temperature than synthetic and that creates the "black" oil. The particles are too small to be captured by the oil filter which is why the oil turns black. Very small, microscopic, burnt carbon but carbon nonetheless.

I'm about to change the oil on my Harley in about 1,000 more miles and when I check it the color is the same as when it came out of the can. Yes, it's synthetic but there is absolutely no burnt carbon in the oil or the engine. It is perfectly clean inside my motor and no wear is occurring. I know that from the color of the oil.

Admittedly this burnt carbon, because it's very small particles, doesn't create a lot of wear but it creates more wear than if it wasn't there.

 

Nothing Anecdotal ... Throughout the 90's Harley's in and around Louisville,Ky sold for
$ 4,ooo over list for cruiser models { Like the Fat Boy and especially the Deuce }.
There was no way around it.That is why throughout the 90's Harley did have an
advantage with resale value.Since Willie G. couldn't keep wup with demand,older
Harley's held their resale value.
Here's how that worked.Harley owners knew they'd have to wait on newer models
{ didn't apply to Ft.Knox or the soldiers as they got bumped up on waiting lists }
and that they ride their hogs for a few years and then sell them for basically around
retail.That to me was a farce.But that was reality in the Harley world.
That entire thought process bugged me.Real turn off.Meaning their was automatic
price controls built into purchasing a Hog.Their market was different than the metric
market.Well bully for them.Honda was still the leader in Motorcycles and even
the cruiser market,especially when they introduced the VTX 1800.That forced Harley to
quickly respond and come up lickety split with the V-rod.I put my name on a waiting list for a
V-rod.Kawasaki then came out with their Mean Streak and Yamaha their Warrior.
V-rod had that one off anodized metal tank { like a Norton Commando }.I haven't seen an
original V-rod in about 6 years.
The VTX 1800 was a huge hit.I bought one the first month they came out.That is when I
adopted my 2 bike rule.To have TWO motorcycles.It took about 7-8 years for the VTX
to become jaded.Mainly because the VTX 1300 was trumping it's sales.The 1300 cc model
had a single pin crank and sounded like a standard Harley.
As far as yer oil coming out the same color as the can.I have never seen that.I just
changed out my oil last week { didn't do last year } and it was the cleanest ever.
because I am putting about 1/3 rd the number of miles as I used to.But still the oil
was blackish,but not as black and gooey as before.I chalk a lot of that up to running
synthetic now ever since the bike had 1,ooo mile.I started with Amsoil 10-50 w
for about 3 years and then Mobil One 10-40 w the last 5.I just put in
Pro Honda HP4 a synthetic/Petroleum blend.I used it years ago with my
VTX one oil change.
I doubt even using a 2nd stage oil filtration like the FilterMAG one could still
achieve what you claim { oil same color drained as in the can }. BTW .... it's been quite a while
since oil was put in cans.Are you sure you are from Planet Earth.
Or maybe just Hog Heaven ... eh !

 

Oils are DESIGNED to hold contaminants in suspension. And again: my truck turns new oil BLACK in less than an hour. The truck I drive at work does the same. For that matter, I have NEVER seen a diesel engine that didn't. It takes about 1500 miles to darken the oil in my Caddy...the engine is clean inside, the oil is doing what it is designed to do. I run regular 15W-40 now, but it darkened synthetic in about the same time.

Actually, it probably means your oil ISN'T flushing out contaminants as well as it could be.

Admittedly this burnt carbon, because it's very small particles, doesn't create a lot of wear but it creates more wear than if it wasn't there.[/QUOTE]

Again: unless and until you have your oil analysed by a lab, you have absolutely no idea if it is contaminated or not and claiming otherwise is just hot air!

 

since this has taken a quick turn to motorcycle engine oil, I will simply direct folks to the site I direct auto gear heads to. I don't bother debating, I simply say go visit bob the oil guy

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

 

I know it's kinda silly.Kind like asking a Mom what's the best peanur butter.
of course guys will be guys.I remember about 5 years ago I went to a mechanic
shop because I had my lawn tractor stranded and I asked if I mcould store in their
back area { fenced in }. So I decided to use them for a tire change.I needed new
tires and the guy who ran the place hooked me up with new tires online and
he semed like he knew what he was doin.He had those tires like he said he would the
next day in the morning.Brand new and waiting on me.I got to talkin to him and
his buddy mechanic and I explained the original tires were too expensive { special Yokomoto
Advans especially for the Mitsubishi Evolution }.So I replaced what I had on.Good
Kuomo all weather which lasted longer and handled great.The mechanic said after
I was discussing rubber that to him,all rubber is the same,therefore ALL tires are
basically the same.I tried to impress that rubber for tires differs as to softness and
hardness,therefore some are better at the track.he just seemed perplexed.
In his experience ... Rubber was Rubber.
I don't think his name was Bob ... though.

 

If you could build the Dream bobber of your choice what engine would you use.
Obvioulsy that isn't as dumb a question as it may appear.Because the one part
on a motorcycle that an individual { even most all clone Motorcycle makers }
CAN'T make is their own engine.
I know what I would crave.

 

1299 cc in-line 4, water cooled aka Busa engine

 

But on a Bobber.? Or a track bike.I've seen those Kaw 4 cylinder choppers.
They look and sound ratty.I evern entertained the idea once of getting a
V-twin sport bike ,like a Ducati. But then why not just go with a winner
like an Aprilla.Probably because there aren't many dealers and they are
expensive.
I wonder If a 90 degree v-twin Duck engine would sit well in a hardy track
bike.
I have the Cycle World { feb.2007} matchup of the Harley Night Rod vs. Suzuki M109
vs. Victory Hammer.It also mentioned Steve McQueen's 1934 Indian Scout { suicide clutch}
that went for $155,ooo at auction.Normally it would have sold for around $20,ooo.

 

I understand the look is supposed to be with the engine tucked away and sideways ala v-twin. Hey, if they can give reasonable performance similar to even a 750cc in-line 4, and weigh under 600 pounds then I'm in.

 

The Kawasaki 1399cc inline 4 is the better engine...190 brake hp, and with ram air effect this goes up to 210 bhp.

The Hayabusa has been runner up since the ZX-14 was introduced, the ZX14 is currently the fastest factory sport bike on the market. It goes 100 mph in 2nd gear...and it's faster than the Hayabusa.

 

You can have that. I'd be happy with a Busa engine. Actually, a bike with a comfortable riding position, passenger comfort, 65lbs torque or more at 3k, 85HP or more so I have some pull even at highway speeds, and weigh under 600 pounds.

 

The Kawasaki Concours 14, one of the most powerful factory touring motorcycles in the World at 157 bhp, is not that heavy at 670 lbs. wet. Compare that with the Harley Davidson Electra-Glide Ultra touring motorcycle which weighs in at 882 lbs. dry. Comfortable ergonomics yet still capable of leaving any of the neo-muscle cars made today in their exhaust fumes.

Very upright seating position.