Obama defines the Question of the Age

Time for people to face facts.

The vision Obama describes above is only going to be available to those with a secondary education, either college or a quality trade school that teaches a valuable, employable skill.

Everyone else will be left in the cold, and that is as it should be.

Democrats need to tell the truth to the majority of their constituency. The blue collar laborers, the grocery baggers, the fast food workers, the menially paid immigrants, that they are undereducated and will continue to be underemployed for life.

 

So Obama wants :

1. earn enough to raise a family
2. build a modest savings,
3. own a home,
4. secure their retirement

And you believe that this should not be available to blue collar workers.

I just want everyone on these boards to see the type of person that you actually are.

 

no that should be the minimum standard for low income people who work at mcdonalds, that is how australia and other europeans have it set up where the lowest wage workers make a living wage

 

Actually what we do is tax people appropriately, use the revenue for public schools and the like, so that entire generations don't fall though the gaps. We try to maintain a more narrow social divide, whereby there is a better chance given to people from poorer families. America fails because the systems in place favour the rich and no one else.

 

Also, we tend to look down on people like Silicon Magic; his views are pretty repulsive to us. We tend to value people with a sense of empathy.

 

agreed that would be an optimal outcome but it looks like it has to be done in stages as in australia a person at mcdonalds make 17 an hour as per one of our valued members here stated and their cost of living is very low there too

so it looks like the country must address minimum wage laws before it can go to next step of universal education

 

So you think that a person with a mere high school diploma who can barely read/write should be able to find a job making 50-60 thousand a year?

If the "blue collar worker" has a valuble skill of course he should make a living wage, Government doesn't need to dictate that.

If the "blue collar worker" is a high school dropout or a graduate who can barely read/write, then no, Government shouldn't be dictating what kind of quality of life he should live.

Your worth as a human being is defined by your economic usefulness, not by the fact you are a human being. Sorry you can't accept that economic fact o flife.

Its not about "morality" or "empathy" it's about raw cold math and economics, which rules over empathy.

Your empathy is expensive and the reason why Greece can't survive.

 

I think a high school diploma should result in a child being far more capable than being "barely able to read/write". But then again, here we use tax money to pay for schools and teachers, not invade other countries and subsidise the rich with tax breaks.

But hey, enjoy your 30k a year and whatever that buys nowadays.

 

I don't live in Greece and am not happy about how they "balance books". Why would you bring Greece into this? You know I don't live there, therefore you've just taken the worst case EU scenario to make a point, which is no applicable.

You've spent a lot of time back tracking since stating that the working classes don't dererve anything in life.

 

it isn't about "working class" its about "educated class"

You don't seem to make a distinction between the two.

I'm maintaining that people in low wage jobs deserve to be there due to a distinct lack of education and skill set.

You are saying that is "mean" and therefore I lack "empathy".

A capitalist economy cannot function in an egalitarian manner.

You want an economy where there are no losers.. I say that the only ones in teh American economy "losing" are those who lack an education necessary to 'win' and that is no one's fault but their own.

yes, the middle class is shrinking, and the reason it is shrinking is a large percentage of the middle class are overpaid when compared to their skill set and education.

You refuse to admit that there really is a thing called "overpaid"

 

Oh no, I agree there is. I just think that CEO's and investment bankers fall into the category.

 

Yeah but I'm getting an education, which means my employment prospects can only go up.

I'm not stagnating. Even if what you claim, that I'm "poor" or dangerously close to it, were true.

I won't be that way forever or even very much longer.

Can't say the same for the guy whose factory closed, all he has to look forward to is minimum wage probably forever.

 

So (*)(*)(*)(*) everyone else? After the amount of debates on these boards about manufacturing jobs and exports and you value the people who actually do this as zero.

 

It occurs to me that providing everyone with a college degree is just as naive a concept as providing everyone with more money. You can't have a society where everyone is white collar. We'd end up with a zillion physicists and not one of them would be able to use a screwdriver. That wouldn't improve the unemployment rate; there's only so much of a need for degreed professionals.
/liberals are funny...

 

Who's saying that? Hint: No one.

What is needed however is a good level of state provided education kids leaving school at 16 and 18. Then a society which is structured so they can do something productive and value adding to society.

/conservatives are funny...

 

Elitist clap trap bordering on bigotry.

 

agreed but the proposal is to provide those who use a screw driver or flip burgers to be provided a living wage, the economic conservative proposal is to leave them in sufferage

 

That is usually helpful to human beings, indeed. I can't argue with that.

And while you might try to justify that things should BE that way, you are not being realistic overall. We cannot expect success for a nation, which leaves those who are NOT "intellectuals" or "academics" of some sort, to fend entirely for themselves; left to those who only see fit to leave them behind.

I've served in 3rd World nations that DO that. The widespread desperation which exists is enough to tug at ANY (decent, feeling) person's heart. Contrary to what many (perhaps yourself) may value most... great monetary WEALTH isn't THE most important aspect of life. If you believe that it is, I suggest to you that it is an ILLUSION... something you've been SOLD or indoctrinated to 'believe'. Wealth isn't bad, but people's attitudes ABOUT the same, surely can be.

And I say that the person who believes what you suggest above, is likely a narrow-minded, cold-hearted fool. They would DANCE with glee... atop a disastrous recipe, which many have implemented (throughout history). Society should find a way (as a PRIORITY) to reasonably reward those who work... with a LIVING WAGE. I'm not talking about someone becoming RICH from working as a laborer, but being able to have a home and raise a family... if they choose to. This barbaric, selfish notion you relate above... is a destructive DEAD END for mankind. In fact, NO ONE makes it completely on their own; anyone who believes that, is essentially 'delusional' or seriously 'misled'.

ALL politicians or lawmakers SHOULD be telling the truth. But ALL of them are HUMAN, they WILL falter or fail to meet expectations at times. Only a very naive person would TRUST what is being said and not VERIFY what is being done.

Republicans need to tell the truth also.

And not EVERYONE must be a scholar, for a society to work. People may indeed need skills of various types for various jobs they seek or possess... but it there is something wrong when someone suggests the view which you do above. How do you expect a society to survive, if people could not or would not work with their hands? And rest assured, as society will NOT be in any condition to do that, if/when those WORKERS (who are not necessarily 'intellectuals') cannot even hope to make a living with their hands.

I suggest that we (this American society) has OVER-VALUED certain people. And I do not think it is going out on a limb or far-fetched, to say that any person who WORKS 40-60 hours a week should make a decent living (have shelter, family and some savings).

You can say what you want Silicon... but what I'm sharing about is FAR from being unreasonable or unattainable. If America has the WILL to accomplish the reasonable things I've suggested, we will not only achieve the things mentioned above, but also grow/flourish for many more years as a result.

But if we reject what I and many others have submitted as a decent, sustainable model... this nation and others like it WILL fail, long before their time.

 

I've worked in factories and not a single one hired at min wage. Perhaps it is different in other parts of the country.

 

As far as I'm concerned, it reminds me of Archie Bunker from "All In The Family".

 

Have all the flights to Australia been stopped??

Teachers in New South Wales are currently among the best paid in Australia
• Starting salary 4-year trained (eg BEd) = $41,109
• Starting salary 5-year trained (eg BEd BA, BEd BSc, BA MTeach, BSc MTeach) = $43,225
• Top of teacher salary scale (Step 13) = $58,692
• Head teacher i.e. subject head = $66,534
• Deputy Principal = from $64,977 to $76,923
• Principal = from $77,915 to $95,101
The average teacher in Australia is making $47K while the average elementary school teacher here in the US makes $50.5K and high school teachers average $53K

Detroit metropolitan area has the highest average public school teacher pay among metropolitan areas for which data are available, at $47.28 per hour - yet they can't graduate more than half of the black boys.

In 2005 the average public school teacher was paid 36% more per hour than the average non-sales white-collar worker and 11% more than the average professional specialty and technical worker.

Compared with public school teachers in the US, editors and reporters earn 24% less; architects, 11% less; psychologists, 9% less; chemists, 5% less; mechanical engineers, 6% less; and economists, 1% less.

 

Lol...Empathy is indeed "expensive".
And people with such morally bankrupt mentalities can't afford it, so they shrivel into angry, self-centered bags of bile and never know the joys of empathy.
Your loss, kid.
Oh, and Greece has "survived" for 2500+ years.

 

the cost of living is lower there so their money goes farther than in the US, in those US states where teachers make more than others all the money goes back into the system because the capitalists make everything expensive in those areas

so that is why americans cannot make a reasonable wage or save any money because the businesses make the cost to live here too expensive

 

They do it by taxing everyone SO bad, everyone struggles the same.

 

The average Australian is wealthier by far than the average American.