Paul, a false prophet?

"Just blind" people - eat and drink.

 

Righteousness does not come with salvation according to Jesus. Righteousness leads to salvation is what Jesus teaches.

This shows the stark contrast between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus.

Can a Jew not be righteous ?

 

Paul was praying and fasting accompanied prayer in those days as well as OT.

 

Good luck finding words to back that statement up. I see you are still trying to separate the two. Show me a saved man that isn't righteous. A saved man is always going to be righteous and Jesus used the pharisees as an example of what unsaved people look like. lol

.. again, not mutually exclusive. Repentance is what makes the heart righteous,right or wrong ?

 

You said that Righteousness comes with salvation.

One does not need salvation to be righteous.

Show where Jesus says that Righteousness comes with salvation.

Jesus says one needs to be righteous to be saved ..that one gains righteousness with salvation.

Jesus teaches forgiveness and repentence but does not claim that righteousness comes with salvation.

You are putting works in the mouth of Jesus.

 

I did. To clarify, I don't see how you can separate the two things.

Now that all depends who you ask, huh ? I bet Jesus wouldn't think you were so righteous if you weren't saved (salvation) ..

I asked you first .. Show me a saved man that isn't inherently righteous.

? You just said what I said here.(Bold) more or less .

I'm not putting words in Jesus' mouth, I am deducing that you cannot separate the two,so when I say that righteousness comes with salvation and you say "one gains" righteousness with salvation, what difference does it make ?

 

No, it does say that, and I have given verses proving it.

It is taught in the Bible.

Quantrill

 

No there isn't.

No, I check, and I don't trust your 'translation'. You simply are not a believer and translate with the intent of distorting what is being said.

And though you are not a Christian, you should know there are warnings in the Bible for purposefully doing that. The Christian translates with those warnings in mind.

Quantrill

 

Russian alphabet is as similiar to Greek as Latin is. A Russian can no more read and understand Greek than any English speaking PF member. A Russian translation of the Bible says the same as the one Qantrill uses. As Quantrill says you use "translations" as a weapon agaist Xty. Everything - any lie, any perversion goes. What does bother you personally in my religion, why do we Xns cause such blind outrage in you?

 

That is absolute BULL!

As a matter of fact - the first time I realized I could read some of the Greek was a church pamplet at a church event someone invited me to.

I glanced down and read the word Sophia - then realized it wasn't in English - or Russian - but Greek.

Look up the word in Russian and Greek!

Then stop this personal attack crap - such as - "you use "translations" as a weapon," "any lie, any perversion goes," blind outrage," etc.

Don't like what I am saying? Use fact to attempt to rebutt it!

 

Just a quick question here: Do you fluently speak the ancient Greek and Hebrew languages?

 

They are separate things plain and simple.

Righteousness is one thing, getting into heaven is another.

I think you are confusing yourself. What do you mean by " if you wern't saved" This is a Christian term for folks that are still alive.

The question at hand is how does one get into Heaven.

Jesus says that you need to be righteous (do good works and be a good person) to get into heaven.

Paul focuses on faith and ingores works.

How can I show you someone who is in heaven ?

I think we are operating under different definitions of salvation. Salvation to me is getting into heaven not .. because one is saved one gets into heaven.

Jesus is not talking about Salvation in the Christian sense often used. He is talking about entering the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus does not say one needs to be saved to enter the kingdom of Heaven as Paul does.

Jesus says that one needs to be a good person.

 

There is nothing to rebutt. No different from statements of evolutionists. http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/216811-why-do-so-many-people-doubt-evolution-17.html
Does your kind thinks that people with basic common sense and basic decency - who are an overwhelming majority in this world - do not have a name for you?

I am bilingual. I fluently speak, write and read Russian and I can make out any Cyrillic based language. A business partner of mine is a native Greek I have a chance to listen Greek and see Greek texts in his house.

 

Then you know it is a fact that there is a lot of crossover and that you can read quite a bit of the Greek!

And as I already said - rebutt the rebttal, stop trying to attack me, in place of the verse.

 

Well, my question posed to you was neither an attack nor a rebuttal, but a simple inquiry which you are seemingly choosing to avoid giving an answer. Surely you retain enough integrity, honesty and civility that will enable you to put forth an answer within the same vein as those listed attributes?

 

One does not need to read be able to read Greek and Hebrew to understand the writing of someone who does.

It is those folks that have pointed out the many interpolations in the Bible, not only from being able to read the language and understand where phrases inserted were linguistically incorrect but also able to see where one word or phrase whas scratched out and replaced with another.

or .. in the case of Paul, show how many of the so called Pauline writing was not written by the same person that wrote other of the writings attributed to Paul.

 

As shown above, it does help to be able to express oneself in his/her own native language before attempting to understand what others might say about another language.

And, If you don't know those original languages and those original dialects (with their corresponding rules of grammar for the era), then a modern day interpretation or translation is doomed. Try again.

Your idea, you show the proof.

 

The only proof you accept is that provided from your daily conversations with the Holy Spirit so there is really no point.

 

You can't have one without the other. Think about what you write before you write it Gifedone, please. I'm not talking about separate definitions.

I wrote '(salvation)' after saved.

Repentance come before righteousness and salvation, in fact, repentance is the only way .... and faith in Jesus, words, power, and teachings.

Nope. Paul focuses of having faith in Jesus ( words,power, and teachings) and they both preached repentance.

Face it, you got nothing.

Missing the point on purpose ?

We are operating under the same definition of salvation. When I say saved, I mean the same thing.

 

Then you are admitting that you do not have sufficient evidence and a total lack of PROOF?

 

Of course you can have one without the other. By your statment below one can be righteous (do good works) but if they do not have faith they will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

"repentance" is not even mentioned as being the only way by Jesus. This is Paul talking.

Jesus reference to the term righteousness refers to works and obeying the law.

I am not sure if this is willful ignorance on your part or you really do not understand.

Read the words of Jesus and tell me where you find that repentence is the only way to heaven ?

Transferrence perhaps ?

 

What do you think faith is for ? lol Faith in Christ LEADS to salvation,rightousness.

Repentance is for sinners, not perfect people. Jesus and Paul both taught repentence. It is paramount to those that are living in sin.

Not missing a beat ... The point is that PAUL did not contradict this idea . Faith in Christ = faith in " the way, the truth, and the life"

*sigh*

Luke 5:32 (NIV) "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Luke 13:3 (NIV) "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."


EDIT:

Back to you - I say that righteousness comes with salvation and you say "one gains" righteousness with salvation, what difference does it make ?

 

According to Paul but this is not what Jesus says in his most famous Sermon.

You keep saying this but this is not what Jesus says.

*sigh*

Of course sinners should repent and follow the law, becoming more righteous as Christ suggest

Same answer as above.

I do not say one gains righteousness with salvation ?

I say that according to Jesus one needs to follow the law better than the teachers of the law did at the time of Jesus. If you can meet that level of righteousness then you will see the kingdom of heaven. (This was not a very high bar by the way)

Jesus does not say anything about the need to have faith that he died on the cross to get into heaven in his sermon. It is not included in his criteria.

John suggests this is the only criteria .. as do you.

I suggest that you re-read the greatest sermon ever given with an open mind not clouded by implanted beliefs and really try and figure out what Jesus is saying.

 

No I don't "fluently" speak ancient Greek and Hebrew, LOL!

Not even the experts do. Even the Hebrew Scholars are doing a bit of guessing as they had no original vowels to work with - they were added later.

And it is very obvious whoever did the "later" translating of the Bible had real problems with language.

They did not even take advantage of the Hebrew Scholars and their known translations.

In other words there are parts of the OT "translated" by "Christians" that do not match what the Hebrew say they say.

Lots of problems with Christians translating - such as saying the Emmanuel story foretells Iesous, when Emmanuel is actually Isaiah's son by the Temple woman.

Now - can we get back to the debate? Anyone here can use a basic Strong's, or go online to a Rabbi, or Jewish Biblical Scholar's site, to see what they say, or let your fingers do the Google - to check out what I am saying.

Christians need to just stop saying it is "so" because the Bible says so - the reality is that "most" of you don't know what the Bible actually says, unless you look at the verses in the original languages.

I say most, because I've had some very good discussions with a few Christians that really have their (*)(*)(*)(*) together.

Whatever your religion - don't just read your TRANSLATION and think you know what the book says.

 

Heed your own advice considering that you admit that you do not fluently speak either the ancient Greek or Hebrew and that the current state of affairs regarding the various translations of the Bible is atrocious to say the least.

Now one other question. Do you suppose that your translations are any better than those of others who have made a mess of the original writings? If yes, then Why?