People who say God gives us free will are liars.

I explained gravity to you at least 5 different times. It is simply the attraction of two bodies in a weightlessness environment. You do not seem to be able to comprehend this.

I also explain that the picture to you.

I can only conclude that you are trolling at this point.

 

It's not that He doesn't know it's that your choice doesn't matter.

Your choice automatically creates negative choices. That is, what you chose NOT to do are still viable paths than can and might be brought to their conclusion in parallels. Since He knows all, there is no need to know which path you took. However, YOU have free will in your own time and space. Essentially, when you make a choice, all possibilities are chosen at once across many dimensions. You are only consciously aware of 1 therefore your choice can be seen as free will while He already knows all outcomes.

 

Are you suggesting that we are all affected by the force of gravity because we are in a 'weightless environment'. What exactly is a 'weightlessness environment'? What causes 'weight'?

 

I didn't say I was going to completely ignore you (though maybe that would be a more wise choice), just that I wasn't going to continue the discussion with you. And I haven't really. I've defended myself against some more of your bull(*)(*)(*)(*), but that's about it.

Because you decide to ignore it, does not mean I have not given it. I've even just done it again with Neutral. You can address that one if you like (not holding my breath).

And you do realize that logic is the only means of actual proof that exists, right? Other than that, we can't really prove anything.

Must be cozy under that bridge, you really don't want to come out.

 

You explained nothing. I asked you if gravity was a wave or particle at least 2 times. You have not answered. Beyond that, what is the mechanism at work regarding gravity? Your graphic only shows the EFFECT of gravitational forces, not what it actually is. (hence my statement that there are not strings in space that you used to denigrate and insult me further) What is gravity made of? Can you answer that? Fact is, you don't know, yet you claim to know everything about God.

You can't even tell me what was before the Big Bang or even if there was a big bang. There are other theories as well and I provided you a link which you ignored in favor of hurling more insults.

Bottom line, until you can explain the universe and how it works, your proclamations that there is no God are baseless and just as belief oriented as those who believe in God.

 

But you are still continuing the conversation... Thus, your statement of what you were going to do is a false representation...

This conversation is between me and you ... not me, you, and Neutral... keep the facts straight and quit throwing out those red herrings.

And you do realize that there is more than one form of 'logic',,, in fact there are as many forms of logic as there are differing philosophies. So why do you and others keep trying to use the wrong form of logic when attempting to stress your point(s) within a forum that has its own form of logic (the logic of Theosophy) that is different than the form which you choose to use?

What bridge? Are you on drugs or something?

 

Gravity is simply the attraction of two bodies in a weightlessness environment.

This nonsense of wave or particle is just that nonsense. You might as well be asking if a car can fly.

The graphic you speak of is ACTAULLY A VIDEO, that you never watched that would explain gravity to you.

You refuse to read what I post and you obviously did not watch the video.

Here is the link: How does gravity work?

So now, you can watch the VIDEO.

Here we go again, I already said that we do not what happened before the big bang. Do your read? This is why I think you are clearly trolling. NO ONE KNOWS what happened before the big bang. However, saying god did is known as the God Of Gaps, which is logical fallacy.

Yes, I can say with 100% certainty that there is not god. All gods are, is explanations for what we do not know.

Now, if you have any evidence that is verifiable for any god, please present it. I know you don’t have any, BECAUSE GODS ARE NOTHING BUT MAN MADE IDEAS TO EXPLAIN WHAT WE DO NOT KNOW!

 

And what is a "weightlessness environment"? Can you answer that question? Or how about this one: You are in an environment and you have weight therefore you cannot be said to be weightless or in a weightlessness environment else you would have no weight... so what makes you have weight?

 

Explain why these bodies attract. What is the exact mechanism of gravity?

NONSENSE? Einstein thought gravity was a wave others say it is a particle, some say it is a wave/particle combination like the theory of light photons. Your dismissive answer tells me you are quite lacking in your knowledge of the subject.

I don't know and never claimed to know however, YOU claim to know that there is no GOD. The only way you can KNOW this is to provide alternate explanations and exact descriptions of how the universe actually works. Otherwise you are just bloviating.

I am familiar with that video and many others that are similar. They only explain what can be observed about the forces of gravity NOT the actual mechanism and how it works.

The video does not explain anything about what gravity actually is. I repeat..is it a wave? Is it a particle? Is it a string? Is it a net? What exactly constitutes the attractive force? You don't know...It's obvious. In fact no one knows. There are only theories.

Yet you sit there with your aloof attitude and cast insults on those who have a belief in a Creator when all you really have is your own belief.

The how do you know a Creator was not present BEFORE the big bang? How do you know a Creator didn't cause the Big Bang? Answer...You don't...But somehow you see fit to denigrate those who might believe in a Creator.

God of the Gaps presumes that you know that everything has a scientific explanation. It is a quite ignorant stance in that it is predicated on the assumption that anything that can be explained by science automatically excludes God.

From your Wiki...

"The expression, "God of the Gaps," contains a real truth. It is erroneous if it is taken to mean that God is not immanent in natural law but is only to be observed in mysteries unexplained by law. No significant Christian group has believed this view."

Yes and that is YOUR belief. I respect your right to believe in Atheistic dogma. Why can't you respect the beliefs of other folks?

Like I said, you don't really know anything about the universe. How could you know about God?

 

If you were, then you would have NEVER made this stupid, insane idiotic comment:

You didnt even know it was a video, UNTILL I EXPLAINED IT TO YOU!

You are free to continue on your troll fest.

 

Also, just to show how dishonest you are:

You 'quoted' me here:

This what I said:

You are literally putting words in my mouth, that I did NOT write. This is a TOS violation, and you have been reported as such.

 

Oh, and what does the law of logic say about excesive emotionalism.

There is no contradiction. All knowledge does not mean that knowledge in and of itself result in a particular outcome. To conclude otherwise is subjective and illogical - like swearing.

Being all powerful means you can literally do anything. And that means set limits on yourself.

God sets limits on himself. He follows his own rules, even though he has the power NOT to - just like you. However, he grants freewill, is within his power because by definition ALL things are possible to ALL power.

Its simple logic - without swearing and blowing a stack.

You have not responded to anything I wrote - just sworn a lot and made a lot of accusations.

Now, as you atheists talk about skepticism - why do you respond like a bunch of dopey, rude teenagers when someone questions you?

Perhaps the reason people disagree is because what you advocate is simply not correct? But, I am sure volume, swearing, and throwing out vacuous claims is wonderful support for a position?

Maybe in atheism ...

Yep, that would be freewill. Now would you care to explain how knowing that being hit a bus invalidate your free will?

Yep, you know it is going to happen - that does not mean you will be prevented from doing so. And what you leave out is oomnipotence from omniscience. An all powerful being can GRANT you freewill.

Because in ten seconds you will still trip over a wire - perhaps by saying, "Phbt! you are so wrong, turning and walking straight over said cable."

You are also assuming that every possibility is ONE possibility. An all knowing source is going to see the outcome of several choices and the branches and intersections of multiple decisions.

In fact, whether you like it or not, you are effected by OTHER people's decisions every day - something as being late to work because some tool sped and got into an accident on the freeway. And, even if I KNOW you are going to walk by an incident in cowardance ... you still made the choice even if I have knowledge of it.

Knowledge of what you are going to do does not invalidate freewill. We KNOW the people around us, we know when drunk abusive dolt comes home drunk, like he does every night, he's going to say something stupid and get in a fight with a coat rack.

The issue is, in that instance, what controls you? Did freewill drive you to drink or does the drink have control of you - this abandoning free will.

You also are talking about the concept of FOREKNOWLEDGE - which is a bit different. God has foreknowledge we do not. He also has the power to maniuplate things IF HE SO CHOOSES.

It all comes down to WHY God made the universe.

You are introducing limits when ALL power and ALL knoweldge means just that.

If my knowledge is that by telling you this you will sit down like an obstinate fool? Then yes.

Not if I am trying to get Bob to eat more fruit.

Again, WHY did God create the universe - it IS releavnt.

How many times do I have to say this? I disagree.

You are an atheist, you have an intent and interest here even if you do not want to acknowledge it.

 

Try answering the questions. So far you have not even addressed my questions.

Your video is about 1 minute in duration and explains nothing about the exact mechanism of gravity other than gravity is not magnetic which, in itself, shows that your video also has no clue.

OK so I made a typo..BFD. Don't get your pink panties in a knot. As far as violations go, you have already committed many with your personal insults. I am letting you slide because I figure you can't help yourself.

Again...You have shown you know nothing about how the universe works, where it came from, what was before, the exact mechanism of gravity etc. Yet, you feel the need to insult and denigrate those who have a belief in a Creator. You fail to recognize that understanding where we are, who we are, where we came from etc. may not an 'either/or' situation which is not unlike strict, fundamental, dogmatic religious people. I see folks like you cut from the same cloth that is, needing to cling to dogma (in this case Atheism) in order to maintain mental stability. With these folks, challenges are always met with anger and insults. Much like most of your posts.

 

I cannot answer questions from a dishonest poster who refuses to read what is written (as I have explained to you what gravity is countless times) and who is quoting questions 'from' me when I did not ask/say them.

 

No...you have NOT explained what gravity is. You have only provided what the EFFECTS of gravity are...not the exact mechanism(s). Is it a wave? Is it a particle? What are those strings in your video made of? Apparently you believe they are exerting some kind of force. What is that force made of?

Your video also claims that gravity is not magnetic in nature but, there are other conflicting opinions yet, you cling to that video like a monkey grasping a shiny object.

Neither you nor anyone else can answer those questions yet, you are sitting there telling us there is no Creator. Can you see the hypocrisy? Yes? No?

 

God of the gaps

Humans have used gods for millenniums to explain what we do not know. Even today, people will use the God of the gaps.

The Black Death in England 1348-1350

When human beings do not know or understand something, we are quick to come up with some insane bull(*)(*)(*)(*) to help us explain stuff. Look at the Above quote: ' punishment from God', ' evil stares' and Jews were out to poison people. It was a bacteria disease. Of course back then, bacteria was unheard of.

Look at today, how did life start? We know the building blocks of life are plentiful in the Universe. We have seen strands of RNA spontaneous form in what is thought to be early Earth conditions. We have taken a cell and put in synthetic DNA and the cell can live on and multiply. We have this knowledge, but yet, those brainwashed by religion will call Abiogenesis a 'fairytale'. They are quick to ask, have we created life in a lab. While we have not, based on past scientific progress, I am 100% certain we will.

What caused The Big Bang? We do not know, and we may never know. Simply saying some creator did is too easy of an answer. Its a silly attempt to try and humanize a process that is not human at all. While its silly to try and humanize something, I will admit it is a very appealing option. And to the masses, that is why this silly notion of god persists. We are conditioned to believe in gods from an early age. It is in our nature to do so.

Some of us grow out of this and realize gods are just myths, much like Leprechauns, A Phoenix, Gnomes, etc. For those of us that do, we will not accept silly answers like god is the cause of The Big Bang. I am open to alternate ideas for the formation of the universe, but I’m not open to silly ideas that some creator created the universe. That is humanizing a process. And humanizing a process that started the Universe is just plain silly and shows how egocentric humans are.

 

For the 10th time, gravity is the attraction of 2 bodies in weightlessness environment.

It is not my problem you do not understand this.

The 'strings' in the video are not strings. This is why you are simply trolling. As I have explained before, the strings are not strings, it is a grid and it shows how a massive object like the Earth bends time and space around it. If you put space on a 'grid', then you can visually understand how the Earth bends time and space around it. For you to call them 'strings' is completely dishonest.

There is no hypocrisy, as there is no creator, there never was a creator and there never will be a creator. You are simply using the God Of Gaps to try and cling on to an ill-faded belief system.

 

You obviously do not comprehend what a "weightlessness environment" is, because you cannot explain what one is. You also are obviously not capable of explaining what causes weight. EPIC FAIL ON YOUR PART.

 

I think it matters if I drive off a cliff,no?

But isn't there only one final outcome in the end ? ..and if you say there are many final outcomes in the end and they are based off my freewill/choices, which final outcome will I be aware of and does God know that one ?

 

And we were getting along so well...LOL Seriously stones, it's a fairly common description of a Gay person being overly GAY in public..Like walking around waving Pink feathers and stuff. If somebody wanted to insult the person they would use the other ''F'' word,,they do not...What would you rather they say when a person like that is begging for attention...AND YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN!!!
Are you going to tell us they ARE NOT looking for attention? Sorry, I dont buy that, and either do most people and either do many other Gay folk..

Why is it I have heard many Gays use that word? It's because they know the person is looking for attention, and they dont like it, it's degrading...Do you think us Italians like when guys walk and talk like mafia wise guys like you see in the movies? We call them Guineas,,or Wops. We are not putting down them being Italian, we are describing their actions and dress.....[Big Gold Chains and stuff]

Get it??

 

pass it over here , will ya ? HaHaHaha...

I've read your post with understanding ... it was a difficult task . . .

When you do anything , anything at all , it's free will , you go to the bathroom , that's free will ... it may be mother nature calling , but you can sit there and hold it 'till your eyes cross ,,, or ,,,, you can go when the first notice arrives , , , either way , it's as much of a individual choice as was your good post here . . .

and in all sincerity , if you're hanging out with friends and ripping off Wal-Marts of CD's and such , then you need to start associating with a better class of people , and the very best place to start is in a good Church... all it takes is a visit and meet them one Sunday or Wednesday ,,, good people that honestly care ...

 

What if you don't have to go to the bathroom ? lol

 

More evasion - got it.

"I live in a magical fantasy realm where logic doesn't apply to me."

More evasion - got it.

Trolls live under bridges. Thus, since you fight to not come out from under yours, it must be very cozy.

 

You know, if you really think it is bad, you could just ignore it.

However, as another point. I think you have limited yourself in terms of possibility, all your previous examples have onl;y one possibility.

Recent studies indicate that there is not just a universe, but a mutliverse. Omniscience is not just know WHAT you are going to do, but all the POSSIBLE THINGS you can do and their outcomes.

 

Yes, it does if that knowledge is perfect and infallible. Because nothing can happen except that which the omniscient one has knowledge of.

But if an omnipotent being has limits, whether self-imposed or not, then by definition, he is no longer omnipotent.

If God is omnipotent, can he remove his own omnipotence? If so, he would cease to be God. If not, he was not God/omnipotent to begin with.

The "absoluteness" of omnipotence and omniscience, whether together or separately, are inherently contradictory.

God is both omniscient and omnipotent, right?. That omniscience would also apply to himself. So can God use his omnipotence to do something that he knows he was not going to do?

So you're saying that God's omnipotence allows him to violate the law of noncontradiction? If so, how? You just said that he follows his own rules. Another contradiction.

If a god exists, he gave us the power of constructive and rational thought (obviously, because we possess it). And using that thought, I know that such a fundamental principal as the law of noncontradiction is paramount, and cannot be broken. It's called a logical axiom or tautology. It is inherently true under any and all circumstances.

Omnipotence, just like omniscience, is self-contradictory and thus cannot be possible.

You must be frolicking in the same magical fantasy realm as Incorporeal.

Or that it just seems incorrect to you because you cannot understand it.

By itself, without omniscience, yes.

Simple knowledge does not invalidate free will, which even includes foreknowledge. Free will becomes invalidated when that knowledge is absolute and infallible.

You didn't really address my question.

If an omnipotent being knows I will turn right, the scenario has been reduced to only one possible outcome - me turning right, period. If there is only one possible outcome, how could I choose, or have even had the possibility to choose, to turn left if that being knows I will go right?

Again, you're not really addressing my question/point. I'll make it more specific...

It's a square room. We are standing at the left wall, the couch is in the middle, and the door is on the right wall. The cable runs along the ground directly in front of the doorway. I would literally have to step through the doorway (leaving the room) to walk over it. So if I wanted to sit on the couch, I would be no where near the cable or the doorway.

So let's try again. You and I are in the above described room. You are omniscient, and you know that in 10 seconds while walking toward the exit, I will trip over a cable and fall. Since your knowledge is perfect, can I decide to sit down on the couch and read a book for an hour instead of walking out of the room and tripping? If so, how? If not, why not?

And please, don't strawman this into "now you're changing the scenario" - I'm not. I'm only being more specific to try and get you to address my point.

That would be true, but irrelevant. Knowing the outcome of all possible choices doesn't matter. An all knowing being would also know which "choice" you will make, and thus the outcome that actually occurs - which is the important part.

That's not omniscience. And "know" in this context has a different meaning. You "know" only insofar as probability states that "this is the most likely outcome". It's not the same "know" as omniscient knowledge.

I'm not really talking about foreknowledge per se, but yes, omniscience would include foreknowledge.

I am not introducing any limits. I am only pointing out the inherent limits and contradictions that already exist within these logical concepts.

But now you are changing things, that's not the scenario that I presented. Your omniscient knowledge is exactly thus: "In 10 seconds, Nullity will walk out of the room and trip over that cable" (the room that I described above).

If this is your infallible knowledge, then even if you tell me this outcome, my action could not change. I still cannot sit down on the couch instead. There was only one possible outcome. I could not "choose" to do anything but walk out of the room which causes me to trip over the cable.

Maybe this is so difficult for some to grasp because we're not used to the possibility of only one outcome to a scenario. From our perspective, there is always more than one outcome. Sometimes, in order to understand something, we have to "think outside the box" (to use a cliche).

But again, that's not the scenario. The subject was specifically Bob's apples, not fruit in general.

It's not if the subject is how many apples God has (figuratively).

But that's basically telling me what I believe

No, I didn't. But now that you mention it, if omniscience and/or omnipotence are necessary attributes of your God, then yes, I have logically disproved that particular God (not all gods or the possibility of some god).

I know you obviously won't see it that way, but that's not necessary, as I've said, that was never my intent. I was only speaking of logical concepts, and have specifically pointed out that God need not even enter the discussion - you guys keep bringing him back in.