PETER HITCHENS: Wear a mask if you want - but understand it's about fear and control, NOT health...

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by InWalkedBud, Jan 5, 2023.

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  1. MuchAdo

    MuchAdo Well-Known Member

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    You promoting disinformation.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7904135/

    https://www.physoc.org/blog/are-face-masks-reducing-the-oxygen-in-your-blood/

    https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/face-masks-may-increase-feelings-of-breathlessness

    https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/masks-oxygen-levels
     
  2. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting.

    Have you ever tried wearing a mask while running? It is exceedingly hard. You cannot run anywhere near as far with a mask on as opposed to without. Exercise tolerance is severely diminished with mask-wearing versus without.

    Why do you think that is?

    Give that answer a sincere attempt, and I will respond by describing why measuring oxygen sat levels is NOT the final word on raising blood pressure, subsequent heart disease, and increased stroke risk which is what I have pointed to in regard to ill health effects associated with mask-wearing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  3. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Let me be clear: I don't give a crap! Only thing that matters is that you went around and around in circles and, in the end, refused to answer the question. And it's the number of circles you went around to avoid answering that was most significant in this case. And your final nonsense about people posting parts of studies in which they cherry-pick out relevant parts because they are concerned about "lack of oxygenation" is just beyond hysterical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  4. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sounds highly unlikely people would catch the flu while running.
     
  5. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe if there is someone that just clicked on this last page and only read this reply, they MIGHT mistakenly believe your summation. For anyone else however, your characterization is significantly less than honest and it is obvious.

    You are fooling on one, other than perhaps yourself, although deep down, I don't think even you honestly believe your claim.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  6. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A strawman!

    Imagine that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
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  7. MuchAdo

    MuchAdo Well-Known Member

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    Nope. People run in colder countries with scarfs wrapped around their faces with no issues.

    I have been in long surgeries and the surgeons breathe normally, and don’t get light headed. And you sure as hell don’t hear the nurses say to the doctor “What did you say” when the doctor says something. Nobody raises their voices during surgeries due to masks causing muffling.

    You are looking for an excuse to justify your own very wrong opinion that masks are harmful or aren’t effective. Why you would want to potentially cause illness or death is beyond me.

    You are promoting harmful misinformation.
     
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  8. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Anybody who read my question from the very first post you responded to, and followed your attempts to tap dance away from answering it will realize WHO was significantly less than honest.
     
  9. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Strawman? That was what the WHOLE debate was about!

    Do you even know what "strawman" means"
     
  10. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nope what? You are saying that it is NOT harder to run with a mask on versus without? LOL....you obviously have never tried.

    Did I say that a surgeon cannot breathe normally during a surgery? No. Then why are you arguing against that point? Are you honestly trying to say that it does not make it more difficult to hear what someone is saying when they wear a mask? That is silly, and everyone knows it is. Of course it makes is harder to hear and understand someone. It just so happens that I have worked in Medical sales for several decades, and I have been in far too many surgeries to count. In fact, I am one of the people wearing a mask during those surgeries. I know full well what a mask does and does not do during surgery.

    Lets return to reality. In response to me saying that mask wearing can cause high blood pressure, heart disease, and subsequent strokes, you provided a quote of a doctor saying that in their study it did not decrease oxygen sat levels. That does NOT address what I said. Oxygen saturation levels do not have to decrease to raise blood pressure, increase heart disease risk, and increase risk of stroke. Why is that? Because the reason that ox sat levels do not necessarily decrease is because with normal healthy people, they have excess capacity that can compensate for less efficient oxygenation in order to maintain ox sat levels. How does this occur? The heart beats more rapidly. The person breathes harder. Pulse rate increases.

    What does an increased heart rate cause?It makes the heart work harder which leads to higher blood pressure. What does high blood pressure do? It increases risk of heart disease, and increases the risk of having a stroke. For this reason, it is not lower ox sat levels that harm the healthy individual, rather it is the increase in heart rate required to maintain ideal ox sat levels in the absence of less than ideal oxygen intake.








    Just as an FYI...With unhealthy people without excess capacity in their system, their ox sat levels do decrease from mask wearing, which is what happened to my brother whom just passed away from Pulmonary fibrosis this past June. For him, I saw many times where his ox sat level would decrease from high 80's to mid 60's which is a SCARY ox sat level and he almost always had that device on his finger so we knew his levels precisely at all times. For most people, if ox sat went down to high 80's they would send you to an emergency room. For him, you literally and legitimately were afraid he was going to pass out and never wake up. Severely pulmonary-compromised people like my brother are also a factor in mask mandates.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  11. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So the whole debate was about whether people catch the flu while running? Can you point me to where that was discussed? Since it was the "WHOLE debate" this should be easy for you to cut and paste that subject actually being debated.

    We all know however that you will do no such thing because your claim that it is the whole debate is simply not true. I have seen enough from you over the years to know that that will not stop you from arguing as if it is true however.




    ...Yes, I DO know what strawman means. It is arguing against a point that has not been raised such as arguing that it is unlikely that someone is going to catch the flu while running, as if someone had just made that argument and you are responding to them making that argument.

    Do YOU know what a strawman argument means?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  12. MuchAdo

    MuchAdo Well-Known Member

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    You claim masks reduce oxygenation in people. Surgeons are people who wear masks for extended times, they are unaffected just like anybody else who wears a mask. Medical salesman generally don’t get invited into surgeries related to sterile fields Sales are done in offices. I simply do not believe you.

    Where is your proof. Show me some supportive research for your statements and I will read them.

    But you were just using the reason that masks were harmful due to low oxygen saturation , now you moved on to heart rate. So where is your proof that masks increase heart rate. Post some supportive research because nothing you are saying is true related to masks.

    You are posting misinformation.

    This is why some people were exempted from mask wearing, it doesn’t mean the whole world shouldn’t wear masks.
     
  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    The whole debate you jumped into, and my question, was about catching the flu (or other respiratory diseases) which could be lethal when combined with the Covid and could be partially mitigated with masks. A practice that, for some reason you and other right-wingers refuse to explain, is offensive to science denialists, even when it's OTHER people who wear it. The "running" part is ridiculous. But it was YOUR one and only contribution to the debate.

    This might be a lesson you could use in the future: never jump into a discussion without first understanding what it's about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  14. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your claim that I argued about oxygen sat levels and then moved to heart rate is 100% false. I never attributed the harm to lowered ox sat levels. In fact, I never even mentioned the ox sat concept until you posted a doctor talking about ox sat. You argued against that point, but that is not a point that I ever raised. You probably should go back and read again because you are clearly confused.

    Oxygenation is the process of processing oxygen. Ox sat levels is the measure of oxygen percentage in the blood. You seem to be confused as to the difference in those two related but different concepts. Lowered oxygenation efficiency leads to an increased heart rate and increased breathing rate. If you don't understand these ( which are common knowledge principles) I am not going to go back and point you to literature that teaches these very basic concepts. Of course heart rate and breathing increases as more oxygen is required by your body for whatever reason.
     
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  15. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Forgive me.....did you point to catching the flu while running being the whole debate? No? Bueller?





    BTW.......you do realize that you can run on a treadmill do you not?...and that one can catch the flu in a gym?. Gyms mandated mask wearing. Lots of us have tried running on treadmills while wearing a mask. This may come as a surprise, but your exercise tolerance is significantly decreased while wearing a mask.

    It makes your heart beat faster and it is very hard to catch your breath. Go figure.
     
  16. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    No. YOU did. But only if we were to assume that what you said was not intended as a strawman and that you were actually following the topic that was being discussed.

    The alternative would be that your mention of "running" was, in fact, just a strawman. Or that you were sending post after post without understanding what the debate was about.

    Your choice...
     
  17. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Running was a strawman? Nope.

    It was a straight forward illustration to point out that wearing a mask decreases exercise tolerance.

    Wow, you are very confused. Do you even know what a strawman actually is? If so, please explain how my mention of running fits your belief of what constitutes a strawman argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
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  18. MuchAdo

    MuchAdo Well-Known Member

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    Do masks result in tachycardia which is a heart rate over 100 beats per minutes? No proof of this. Evidence seems to suggest maybe a slight increase in heart rate.

    Does running on a treadmill result in tachycardia? Obviously, it does. I have included some information further on in this post that addresses mask wearing and increase in heart rate.

    The heart rate typically rises during exercise. Does exercise cause higher blood pressure? Does exercise increase the risk of heart disease and increase the risk of having a stroke? Nope. It actually decreases all these things and improves health.

    If a person has untreated tachycardia where the heart rate is high all the time, this is what can lead to serious health problems such as high blood pressure, heart failure, stroke and sudden cardiac death.

    The transient rise in heart rate via exercise doesn't cause high blood pressure, heart disease or stroke. Why on earth would a transient rise in heart rate from wearing a mask during exercise (as you claim) cause high blood pressure, heart disease or stroke? It's long term tachycardia that results in such health issues. Again you are providing misinformation.

    Here are a few research papers/articles related to mask wearing and physical exercise.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/19417381221084661

    and

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2021.775750/full

    https://www.germanjournalsportsmedi...en-saturation-and-rate-of-perceived-exertion/

    and

    It's beyond me why you keep providing misinformation which is harmful and wrong in order to justify that you don't want to do something that might just stop others from getting seriously ill or even cause a death.
     
  19. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If I had said that wearing a mask causes tachycardia, you would have made a great point.

    Since I said no such thing however, this is just another garden variety strawman argument where you argue against points that were not made that you are easily able to knock down (the strawman). You may as well argue that mask wearing does not cause cardiac arrest so you can knock that one down too.

    Transient rise in heart rate during exercise? Did people working in office buildings only mask up during exercise? Are you trying to say nobody was forced to wear masks for 12 hours per day? You do not think having the heart work harder for 12 hours per day could have negative consequences for certain individuals that were borderline already in terms of oxygenation capacity?

    Zzzzz.

    My point has long since been made, and I find this discussion to be redundant and ultimately boring. I am sorry, nothing above refutes one thing that I have actually said. I happen to present medical studies for a living, and know full well how to argue both pro and con for various studies. Your problem is that you have no actual understanding of these studies, rather you only know how to read the headline. What is the point?

    You keep showing different studies that do not say what you think they do, and you are just insistent that they support your argument despite the reality that they do not. Your tachycardia claim is a perfect example of such. So is your presenting studies that say it is perfectly fine for most healthy people. Of course it is perfectly fine for most healthy people ( that is not the debate), but there are a lot of people in society that are not healthy, and making them wear a mask for 12 hours per day comes with very real negative potential consequences. I saw it with my brother, and it was utterly heartbreaking. He eventually had to stop going out in public before he otherwise would have, because the mask was far too much to bear.

    Wearing a mask only helps with respiratory secretions which are not anywhere close to the primary method of covid transmission. The primary method is aerosolized virus getting into the air, and for that, a cloth mask is like using a chain link fence to keep out mosquitos.

    Once again, the juice e is not worth the squeeze. For all of the negatives associated with mandatory mask wearing, they simply do not stop enough transmission of covid in order to be worthwhile.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
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  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    So the reason why posters on the right spread disinformation about masks that could save many lives is that it decreases exercise tolerance. Got it!

    After all, what sense is there in living if you can only run half a mile, instead of a mile?

    And, to save some time, your next post is going to be about how this is a "strawman". But it will never explain why you brought up running in the first place into this discussion, about right-wingers obsession with convincing people not to wear masks using disinformation despite the fact that they can save lives.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  21. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another nonsensical mischaracterization.

    This is beyond silly. We have both made our argument, and aimless bickering after the fact accomplishes nothing. Just move on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  22. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Correction: I made my argument and you avoided making any argument whatsoever.

    But we do agree that your evasive non-answers to a simple question have exceeded the level one would normally regard as "silliness".
     
  23. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Blah blah, aimless bickering.... blah,blah blah blah. Blah.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  24. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :bonk: ~ The dumbing-down of society continues unabated ... :disbelief:
     
  25. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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