Poles furious after Russia blames them for starting WWII

His statements are totally insane.

Hitler and Stalin agreed to divvy poland up between them, prior to the invasion.

German-Soviet Nonaggression Pact

 

Poland emerged in 1918. And it suddenly had claimed the territory of all the neighbouring countries. Their aggression against the USSR was not the only one. Their aim was to return the times of medieval Rzech Pospolitaya. And thus this nationalist policy lead to the end which all the nationalists eventually get - complete destruction. It can't be that the nationalist A is good and nationalist B is bad. Both are bad. And that is exactly what is mentioned by russian authorities and twisted by western propaganda.

If Poland had a responsible policy preserving peace and collaboration with all its neighbours - the WW2 wouldn't start.

I recently worked for a czech company and was surprised a lot to see that a rural czech has a strong dislike for poles. I expected that those times passed.

But they have taken the territories of Czechoslovakia! Exactly the same way as USSR did!!!

Yes. But this is exactly the same. Why do poles not show the example of what the way they want to hear 'sorry' doing the same for their own crimes of the past? Ah. That doesn't fit western propaganda. I see. And any 'sorry' will never be enough for the main reason of forcing russians to say 'sorry' is not care for the past but earning some money for today.

Has Kosovo been banned? Or saving lovely albanians from terrible serbs is a completely different thing? No. It was a precedent which happened as an action of western democracies. And once you spit on the floor yourself - make sure everyone will feel free to do the same when they like it. At least there was a referendum in Crimea. It was at least some democratic procedure which never happened in Kosovo.

Soviet troops were welcomed by ukrainians having lived in the western Ukraine. Those people not knowing what Stalin was were happy to get rid of Polish state. But it doesn't change the fact that this act was still an act of war and the responsibility of the USSR authorities.
What really matters is that once you want to judge someone else - try to judge yourself with the same approach.

The illusion of polish government was that Poland was stringer than a younger USSR and just resurrected Germany. They regarded themselves those days as a superpower in the region. This is why they lost.

It never had chance. If Hitler would invade USSR and hold the main battles Poland would gladly take the territories even further than Smolensk. So it was not luck or the free decision of poles. It was Hitler's decision. Backed by Stalin, who didn't see any use of polish state and was damn right. For there was no use but troubles from it. If Poland had a friendly policy towards the USSR (like they did being a part of Warsaw pact) - there would be no aggression and there would be a possible help. For a friendly Poland is much better than a much stronger and invadive Germany.

Soviet troops were in Poland, but it had preserved its sovereignty to an extent unreachable for any soviet republiques or soviet Russia. If there were at least one responsible and independent patriot in the polish government those days they had no reason not to choose this option. For the alternative was war and destruction. And it should have been avoided by all means. Unfortunately polish government consisted of selfish cowards who did everything for their own power caring nothing about the people of Poland not even to say about the nations around.

War and destruction.

IMO if there was any motivation for France and GB to preserve peace in Europe they would have hold a military operation against nazis in the early 30s when they occupied a demilitarized area. At that time it was possible to do with a one quarter of their regular army with no draft and overexpenditure of the yearly budgets. But unfortunately they planned a big war of commies and countries of anti-comintern pact. They thought themselves to be exceptional and wise and all the rest - idiots. The well-known facts prove that they were very wrong.

This is what history of road to war can teach us. Whoever plans to use whatever dumb people for the war against someone else gets a loss and destruction.

 

Western historians like to pretend that Poland was some kind of innocent little country just minding its own business. In reality, their government consisted largely of militant right-wing military officers who behaved belligerently towards Germany and Russia. That's not to say that either country was justified in invading Poland, but to act like Poland did nothing to contribute to the war is pure fantasy.

 

Can I see your sources on this?

I love WW2 history especially the Eastern Front. I have not heard much about this fact you mention about Poland. I know they had a massive build up in military spending but I assumed it was in response to Germany, as it perfectly lags behind Germany re-arrming. Usually a footnote, most of my reading states Poland knew how weak they were, being they knew their small agrarian economy couldn't dare stand against the industrialized Germany and SU.

Thanks in advance, always love new WW2 material!

 

[video=youtube;l_0qZ6_wC8o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_0qZ6_wC8o[/video]

It's part of a four part series.

 

Remember events that prepared the ground for the war, Nazism gathered strength gradually,you know.

Let the British remember the Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1935.

Let them remenber how they condoned Mussolini's aggression in Abyssinia in 1935-1936 wich they were able to derail easily by colsing the Suez Canal.

Let the Frenchs remember how they allowed the Nazi occupy the Rhine demilitarized zone. " If the French had then marched into the Rhineland we would have had to withdraw with our tails between our legs, for the military resources at our disposal would have been wholly inadequate for even a moderate resistance ." - Hitler.

Let both Britain and France remember their economic strangulation of Spanish republic during 1936-1939 along With Germany and Italy.

And Nunich agreement of 1938.

Lastly,let them remeber how they rejected Soviet proposals of collective security in 1939.

Western powers nurtured Nazism as a main anti-communist force and they brought it up.

So countries responsible for the WW2 : Germany,Italy Britain,France,Poland - just in this progression.

 

I feel like posting a wall of text with a few propaganda pictures from the past. They are quite self-revealing about the role of Poland in the beginning of the WW2.


The phrase is "kill the bolshevik".
The propaganda belongs to 20s when Hitler hasn't dreamed about anything but to eat something substantial. Please compare the style of this with any nazi propaganda. It is identical.


The phrase tells. "Again to jew's paws? Never!"

This wasn't an underground and against the law. This used to be official propaganda. I don't blame polish people, especially contemporary people. But Warsaw ghetto was working with the help of polish personnel. And it wasn't Hitler who taught the poles to be anti-semitic.

Now let's look at the way polish government regarded soviet-german pact those days:


The phrase says
"Prussian tributary in Moscow.
Stalin: We signed your pact, Ribbentrop. Kiss our hand and take it. And we will 'think' what we would do next".

The problem of understanding of the reasons why the WW2 started is that it is based on MODERN propaganda. Which tells that democratic political regimes do only the good. And the rest political regimes do all the bad. This destroys in the heads of those who are not able to distinguish between the far left policy and far right policy any motivation to learn what has actually happened. Th picture which is presented to them by propaganda looks easy and 'everyone knows it'. It was Stalin and Hitler who started the war. Why? Because starting a war is bad. And they were bad guys. This is why the soviet-german pact is now under attack. As long as it is the only document which really unites Hitler and Stalin together.

In fact, this kind of view is more than a lie. It is a 10% true. But the 90% is concealed and the true conclusions cannot be made. Once again. It all doesn't refer to the 30s. It is here and now.

The road to WW2 starts in 1917-1918. This years the power in Russia was seized by socialist revolutionaries and the WW1 ended with terrible and humiliating conditions for Germany and AustroHungary. If western countries wouldn't try to fight with the choice of the russians and offer a peaceful coexistance with the commies - it wouldn't have happened. If France and England were mercyful in their victory and provided Germany with a decent alternative - there would be no war. But.

Poland used to be a project of France (mostly). France wanted their money from the USSR (Russian tzar had huge war debts) and it needed a powerful ally in the east off Germany. This is why Poland appeared and had an aggressive policy towards the neighbours. Poland did receive a lot of military aid from France for the war with USSR and it was much easier for it to develop rather than for Germany (robbed and enslaved) and USSR (bloodless and almost isolated). So undermining the power of Poland is based not on any analysis but on the fact of its fast fall in 1939. But the fall of Poland is comparable to the speed of fall of France. So even if we make the judgement like that we are able to say that Poland in 1939 was as strong as France.

In the 20s things went bad for Germany and USSR. Economy was struggling, science was about to disappear and they were almost colonies of the western democracies. But in the 30s people got tired of poverty and humiliation. There appeared an independent strategy in USSR, which started its 5-year plans at the times which are called 'great depression'. So the people in England and France (and US) started to regard communist way as a sane alternative to permanent economic crisis in the west. This wasn't a huge threat. Not more than Islam for US nowadays. But it was decided to destroy this competitor no matter how weak he was. (it's a market competition). This is why France started a huge construction of Maginot fortification lines (what for? Germany had tough peace conditions. They couldn't have any army and could train with bycicles instead of armors!) The main construction of Maginot started in 1929 (right after the first 5-year plan and before Hitler came to power. And finished in ? 1934 right before Hitler became a serious politician in Germany (already having promised a war). If western democracies planned peace they would make a several political meetings and he would be executed or go to jail for the rest of his life. But... that was the moment when war was imminent. It was already planned!
Now I have to make a step back. Of course there is no a secret government of the world. There are groups of different politicians and moguls, tycoons and other decision-makers. Having a plan for war doesn't mean that all the nation or even political party was aware of it. No. And the responsibility for it cannot be put on any big group. But there certainly were people in England and France who had a plan of making war between Germany and Russia to benefit from it politically and economically.
Next goes the internal policy of Germany which was given to Hitler at the moment when western warmongers considered themselves safe (Maginot line, new war machinery and political plots). Hitler received Germany (slaughterin german commies). He got the training in Spain, where west supported 'good guy' Franco but not the 'bad' republicans (supported by USSR). Then he needed industrial capacities to get the advantage over commies. He got it due to Munich agreement and Czechoslovakia was divided between Germany and its future sattelites of eastern Europe and... Poland. USSR tried to help its ally but Poland refused to allow Stalin to do that. Having an Anti-Comintern pact ready USSR was surrounded by a circle of hostile nations. Germany and Japan. War started by an attack from Japan which encountered serious rival. Having estimated its capacities Japan refused of fighting both China and USSR simultaneously. Germany at that moment was tempted by Poland to start the invasion to USSR which wouldn't bring it anything but losses. Hitler and Stalin chose a different way and made a pact which destroyed the strategy of the west compltely. Soon after it they divided Poland... Soon after that France has fallen. GB lost its presence in Asia and stopped to be an empire (being replaced by US).

Now. Is 'Poland' responsible for the WW2. No. Not the people. Not the state. But partly it is responsible. It was created and existed in the plan for making a war. Germany and Russia would control it not allowing to develop. Poland and France in turn would control Germany not giving it a chance to become stronger and become completely indpendent. Altogether with Japan they would rip the USSR to the borders resembling modern borders of Russia. Look once again at the pictures and find any differences in it from Goebels propaganda against the USSR. All the nations in the continent would slaughter each other according to the plan but the bastion of democracy would stay safe behind the Maginot wall and join the war at the last moment with a decisive action (at whoever becomes too strong). The plan looks nice. But the reality turned to be a bloody nightmare for everyone...

Everyone was responsible for its bit to the beginning of the WW2. With no exclusion. But this story is so much more complicated than the story of 'bad and good guys'. In order to believe in it you need to think that
- all the people are equal
- all the people can make mistaks and no system would change a sinful nature of a man
- all the people are defenseless in front of propaganda (and even commercials) not regarding their political regimes.
- all of this nightmare can repeat again and I clearly see that there already is a plan for the WW3. Having learnt the history lessons I am sure that those who plan it would fail, but for millions or billions of people this failure would mean death or perhaps something worse.

 

Although we seem to have quite similar informations about the facts of that times, we have very diifferent interpretations - all you Need for an interesting discussion

When emerging in 1918 out of the German, Austrian and Russian empire Poland hab no fixed historical borders (exept with Slovakia and Romania). All other borders were new to find or had been only administrative internal borders (f.e. Silesian-Galician border, later CSR-PL). In same the territorries mostly were inhabited by polish and other nationalities (German, Czech, Ukrainian, Belorusian and Lituainan)
So quarrels with neighbours were obvious (like in Romania/Hungary, Yugoslawia/Italy,...too). Poland didn't avoid them, but was not the only one.

You seem to mix the unionist concept of Pilsudski - "medieval Rzech Pospolitaya" and the Nationalist concept of Dmowski - "Polish Poland". Pilsudski indeed wanted to incorporate Belarus and western Ukraine - but not in a Nationalist Country. Dmowski wanted the Curzon-line (because he feared too many non polish People inside the new state) - and a strict nationalist, anti german and antisemitic Poland. And he had the power to force Pilsudski to give Minsk back to Stalin in the Riga negotiations. These were the early 20's of the last century, later all calmed down. But the internal nationalistic policy of Dmowski and his followers indeed led to effects like Bandera etc ...

Let me enumerate it like I see it (only Europe) with decreasing importance/guilt:

- the one and only and guilt: Germany esp. Hitler and his followers
- the important (temporary) allies for own advantage without which Hitler wouldn't have been able to occupy a country: Italy (Austria), USSR (Poland)
- the nationalist and seperatist movements and NS-parties in Spain, Austria, Sudetenland, Slovakia, Croatia
- the ignorant: GB, France
- the minor allies: Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, (Finland)
- the collaborateurs: Quisling, Vichy-France, Bandera (temporarily), and all the others (more imprtance for Holocaust than war)

My personal feelings in CZ were not this way. With my kids playing in several hockey tournaments and sometimes even czech teams I didn't feel general dislikes to any other nations, neither polish nor german, russian, belorusian, slovak, hungarian or else... And some nationalist fools you always meet (I always feel there are much more of this type in Germany ...) .. But this were only my feelings, maybe in another place at another time things are different ...

 

agreed, (Poland between ww1 and ww2 was an apartheid state,) and how did you repay them?

 

media - urinal propaganda mr Kiselev , Bandera used Germans and never was nazi collaborator, who was a collaborator its your soviet general Vlasov and + millions muscovites

 

What garbage. The Polish army was antiquated and harmless. It had invaded no one. It had threatened no one. Go on back up what you said. Which Polish Generals threatened Europe, when, where, and how. While you explain that, explain what weapons they actually had and how with those weapons they were in the position to invade another country.

What a crock of fantasy.

 

Hmmm ....

Maybe it's not all black and white.

I agree: Bandera couldn't have that guilt for the horrible events in Ukraine 1941-1944, russians like to tell, simply because he spent most of that time in German prisons or KZ. And as far as I know after war he wasn't accused at Norimberg or else.

I disagree: He didn't use Germans, the de facto position of that time in the german occupied territories was, that the Germans, especially SS used the people for their barbaric ideas (and like Snyder said, they were quite willing everywhere). Other hopes were illusions. I think Bandera had these illutions, as Germany had helped Ukraine after WW1 and seemed the only ally against hostile neighbours Poland and USSR. He didn't have any others. But like many people of that times he had no real idea of the real german aims.

I agree: Vlasov was a collaborateur of first class.

I disagree: Me being a German, he was not "my soviet General"

 

Honestly: The complete Russian claim here is from A to Z full of lies, BS and fairy tales!

It is simply a very bad and offending trial to re-write still confirmed and by a mountain of evidences proofed history! Next will be maybe to defend Massacre of Katyn against thousand of Polish Officers that they were all war criminals or so ... trials to reduce numbers of victims were still done here ... as well before that Germans were the killers what some idiots still try to tell too (no miss-understanding, Germans did most worst and evil things, but truth must stay truth)!

Really ... just an attempt to punish Poland for their support of Ukraine now? Any Russian really wondering why Poland and Ukraine is not liking Russia and have fears when Moscow does such BS?

 

They didn't want the Nazi's so close to the border, so they created a new border and had the Nazis just as close? Plus gained various assets in the process. Sure, protect Russia by taking other countries. The declaration of war and taking of Polish PoWs was just a ruse.

 

UPA has clear position they´d fight against everyone who against Ukrainian statehood , and they saw Germany the less enemy (then Stalin´s USSR) to it . actually UPA was in war with Germany as well

agreed, nothing is black and white in this story ...

 

Why Putin wants to rewrite history is clear. He considers himself the new Stalin. When Poland broke from Russia under Lach Walesa, Walesa was seen as the first and worst nail in the beginning of the collapse of the Soviet Empire. This is standard Putin trying to recreate the days when Poles should know their place, like Germans, Ukraines, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians-as colonies of the Soviet Empire. How dare Poland join NATO let alone fight with Nato in Afghanistan or side with Ukraine. How dare it. Let's return to the days where we can invade and massacre Poles. Let's go back to the days where we starve Ukrainians and use KGB and Russian planted citizens to subject these nations. Join us now as we renter the Soviet empire with the new Uncle Joe.

Bottom line. Poland and I had relatives there slaughtered were not the nicest people to Jews but but neither were Ukrainians, etc. That was then. This is now. Poland, Germany, Ukraine, the Czechs all had leaders who openly acknowledged and apologized for any role their citizens or government may have engaged in during the Nazi era. That does not dismiss the Stalin era, the post Stalin era. Stalin proved as psychotic as dangerous as brutal a mass killer as Hitler. Zero difference. Putin now is a Stalin wannabe.

He comes across as a peacock like Mussolini. He's a small man with a small man complex. If he thinks Poles cower from him he is mistaken. If he thinks Ukrainians cower from him he's wrong. The legacy of communism and what it did in East Europe is a tragedy as bad as the Nazi run puppet states.

Putin can not rewrite that. These East Europeans will not allow it. Putin could never be an ounce of the man Walesa was. He could not understand Walesa was a humble simple man with no ego, just a working man, who treated people gently and with dignity, something Putin was never taught. KGB thugs have no idea about emotions such as humility, dignity, decency. What they do understand is might makes right, period.

 

Who really wants to re-write the history is not Putin, but Poles. They have a very short memory, that more than half a million Soviet soldiers died during the liberation of Poland from Nazis. Ukraine, Lithuania, Estland, Latvia have never been the colonies of Russia. This is a rediculous stament. For your education, the life in Baltic States in Soviet Union was much better than in the rest of the republics, including Russian Federation.
And to compare what did communists in Eastern Europe after the war and Nazis before and during the war is just insane. Just count how many people died as a result of the activities of Hitler and as a result of communists ruling Eastern Europe after the war.

 

What does any of that have to do with the idea that Poland caused WW2?

 

That was just a reply to the specific post rather than to the topic of the thread.

 

Do you have a short-term memory or do you really believe the Russian (Ex-USSR) Propagandas BS here?
How many Poles died during that liberation due to Soviet Terror too? Why did Red Army sit down and played the viewer only during Warsaw Ghetto Rebellion? Who attacked Poland after German attack? Who killed about 30,000 Polish officers and soldiers in POW camps?
Who did the same in the Baltics and deported tens of thousands to Siberia? Who attacked Finland in Winter of 1939/1940?
Was any person in communist ruled East Europe able to say what he / she thinks? Were there any democratic elections which were not a farce of “98.5% elected the communist leadership?”

Sure, Nazis were worst evil and no serious persons do deny this … but to make USSR an angel and telling BS that Baltics had better during USSR is nonsense!

And by the way … your half million killed Red Army soldiers died in majority due to incompetence and indifference to losses by Red Army Leadership.

 

Noone makes USSR an angel. You have no idea how Baltic states lived during Soviet Union times. Have you ever been there at that time to compare? I assume not. And I have been there. Most of the high tec enterprises were in Latvia and Lithuania- they produced electronics, cars in addition to the good butter, milk and cheese products.
What do they have now? Nothing. Their milk products are not needed anywhere in EU. The factories are destroyed. And most of the population has immigrated from Baltic states. Very "good" final.
As for Soviet Army, BS is what you write here about incompetence. By the time when it entered Poland in 1944 it had huge experience in military actions, all the military generals and marshals were talented military people. Huge losses were caused by the strong Nazi army.

 

Russia is just blaming the victim.

we all know that the USSR and Nazis invaded Poland to as to have more land and resources.

Poland did nothing to provoke these attacks.

 

I recently learned that Poland did not exist going into wwi
The culture and the people were there
But run by germany and russia
It was one of those "right of conquest' thingies

Hitler and stalin were simply re asserting their right of conquest over the area sometimes referred to as poland

 

Poland existed for centuries until the end of the 19th century, when the Germans, Russians, and Austro-Hgungaries carved their nation out of existence.

 

So, therefore they are protected from right of conquest?