"Pro-lifers" want to ban abortion....fine...

So first you say the Government is evil....then you say the Supreme Court, which is part of Government, will end it?

 

churchmouse has been on a 40 year snipe hunt.

and will remain on said quest until her last days.

Abortion will never be illegal in this country. Ever.

 

I have no idea why you quoted me....your response has nothing to do with my post.

I never said ANYWHERE that I wanted sterilization limited to men..but they sure can't get a tubal ligation...DUH!

 

The RIGHT ANTI-CHOICE/ANTI-WOMEN POSITION....WORLDVIEW. Lets save money by.........MAKING
All abortion illegal which will only harm poor women and give us many more children to support through Welfare, euthanasia legal through support of wars IN OTHER COUNTRIES, assisted suicide illegal making the terminally ill suffer longer for the PROFITS of HEALTH INSURANCE CORPORATIONS, forced sterilization of those RightiePIGS look down their nose at, pro-eugenics, kill the handicap(YUP A RIGHTY IN HERE ADVOCATED KILLING DOWN SYNDROME KIDS) and FORCE any pregnant woman to have baby who will live in poverty..... forcing her to pay for all of it. And they'd whine about having their guns taken away which has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD and has NEVER HAPPENED and will NOT HAPPEN.
Basically in their SCREWED up BITTER, SELF-LOATHING world...everything goes and people are forced by the state how to live...YUP THey would be FORCED to GIVE BIRTH BY RIGHTIES... Righties promote BIGGER GOVERNMENT control...


OOOPs! I forgot that RIGHTIES want all breeding age women kept in barns so that they only get pregnant with permission from righties and cannot get an abortion.....if that ain't a war on women nothing is....and that IS what they want...

 

Well, this isn't such a bad thing. Should they not have a right to direct where their cash is being spent? Obviously our elected officials have screwed it up beyond catastrophe at this point. Thought you were pro choices and such? Letting people choose where their taxes go would give them more choices. Since choices are good, you should be on the wagon.

Or are you only pro choice when it comes to things you like?

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously, a vasectomy would be more appropriate. Or castration for particularly troublesome creatures.

 

WhatNow? churchmouse gets angry whenever you ask her how she wants to make abortion illegal. Left with a child's answer of "We'll just do it, that's all." Because when she was forced to think about it, even for a little (something few pro-lifers ever do), even she realized the futility of the idea.

No matter what serious scenarios (eschewing the SpaceCricket sarcasm) they come up with....nothing they suggest does anything more than make it more difficult for poor women to get abortions....and slightly to even not-at-all difficult for the rich and middle-class women to.

Their agenda is a fantasy. Unless they truly do support a "Womb Police" Gestapo and "random street ultrasounds" of every woman of child-bearing years.

 

Yelling in all caps, and speaking in generalizations does not help you. Everything you are saying is largely an individual matter. Saying this represents all right wingers is fallacious at best.

 

Well at least you recognize that not all pro-lifers are mindless drones with fantasy based ideas. Can't say that about some others though. I still think my fiendish plot presented in my "Abortion for sterilization" thread is a good enough idea. Obviously it isn't fine tuned enough for legislation, but the idea is fairly sound.

 

Sorry, ol' red bird, it was just too subtle for you....I was mimicking someone...answering back in their own language and style that they can recognize.

 

I am Pro-Choice on abortion...are you? I know we don't have specific choices for how our taxes are spent...an alternative system makes for even bigger government and unlike Republicans , I don't want bigger government...... And we can elect those we hope will spend taxes wisely but nobody promised me a perfect world and only childrn expect every thing to be their way..

YOU have a choice to move to that Utopian country where people donate money to run the country when they feel like it and the magic fairy settles all disputes in a positive uplifting way and everyone is happy...got your ticket yet?

 

What people do is their business, but when my cash enters the equation, it becomes my business. I don't want to pay for abortion in any way, nor do I want to pay for another's birth control, or education on the latest LGBT scheme that has infected the government.

If my money isn't tied to it, go for it, whack your child, it is on your head, not mine. I'd try to persuade you to do otherwise, but at the end of the day it is your choice.

If my money is tied to it, I am most vehemently against it - it costs me money, and the process is a vile one at that as well.

And spare me the usual rant about increased welfare and other nonsense. We shouldn't be forced to pay for that as well.

This could easily be automated, hell it could be done online with PGP security to prevent fraud. Technology is our friend most of the time.

 

Problem is you haven't actually given any proof that your tax dollars are used to fund abortions (except in rape, incest and medical necessity), I can't believe any decent human being would allow the death of a woman simply because there was no money to cover the procedure, or subject a woman/girl to the trauma of seeing a pregnancy through that had been the result of rape, or that the father was her own dad/brother etc.

I keep asking this question and yet not one pro-life person has been able to answer it decently .. If PP are misappropriating federal funds to use for abortions, why after 40 years and 107 investigations have they NEVER been convicted, you cannot say that throughout that time and that number of investigations that every one has been "biased".

It saddening to see so many Americans becoming so materialistic.

 

Ah. A grain of wheat amidst the chaff...

I am aware the Hyde amendment exists. And yes, little money goes to fund the abortions you speak of because they are generally few in number. I still don't like it. Now when it comes to the rape, forced incest and other creepy things here is my only beef with it. How does one prove it wasn't consensual and she just had a change of heart about it later? Now for incest obviously we have tools for it - DNA testing, age of intercourse and all that stuff - lock them and throw away the key once convicted.

Source.

Fairly inexpensive. Working a bull(*)(*)(*)(*) minimum wage job for a couple of weeks, you could afford to pay for your own abortion if it means that much to you. Also, some insurance companies provide for it as well.

But rape? Well, some girls don't like being jilted. And cry rape afterwards. It is this segment that very much perturbs me.

Since there is no real way to determine this, I don't want funds allocated to it. Even if there was, I still don't want to be paying for a procedure that is guaranteed to kill at least one person(as I view the fetus/embryo/child of zion/whatever you want to call it).

Either they are slithering successfully, or they have clean books, don't really know, don't really care. Personally, I bet they have cleaner books than most because they know a complete (*)(*)(*)(*) storm would happen if they messed up. They aren't that stupid. Morally bankrupt, but good accountants with cash probably.

Does it bother the pro choice crowd that the boy scouts receive federal funds and don't allow gays in the leadership? If so, that is kinda how I feel about abortion being paid for. with tax money.

 

Does it matter in the case of a medical problem whether it was consensual or not?

While I admit that there are some cases of rape that are untrue, unlike you I would rather those get through the system than disregard the real cases of rape.
Of course incestuous criminals should be locked away .. but that doesn't help the female who is pregnant.

however that $483 dollars may be the difference between that family eating or not.

That is the nature of the human species I'm afraid .. but as I said above I would rather a system that helps one true rape victim for every 3 or 4 that are false than one that doesn't

Old Star Trek quote "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

I still don't believe that they could have been that creative over their book keeping when those books have been gone through with a fine comb on numerous occasions .. if they are clean, and I believe they are, then people should stop attacking them based on purely perceived financial points.

Yes it does bother me, to me that is discrimination without cause and should be struck down by law if necessary.

 

Upon proven guilty, sell their organs, that should be enough to pay for the cost of it. Slave out their time at a profit. There are plenty of options for those who are not faint of heart.[/quote]

Cheaper than feeding, clothing, housing, and otherwise raising another human being. Oh the irony is delicious!

Terminal disagreement. For a multitude of reasons.

Might work great for Vulcans. But has never worked for humans, real or imagined.

Like I said, I don't really know, nor do I care. I just don't like it. I'd happily donate money for an airstrike on Planned Parenthood though.

Tit for tat, make a deal. I can send my kids to another institution and people can pay for their own abortions. Have the BSA let the gays in, and in exchange shut down Planned Parenthood, and do not make another clone of it in whole or in part.

 

I see nothing against laws that prevent late term abortions as long as the fetus is viable outside the womb, but up until that point abortion should be legal and only legal after that point if the life of the mother is in danger.

You speak of abortion as being an immoral choice. I humbly respect your opinion but if you attempt to strip a mother of her rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in order to give these rights to an unviable fetus, then in my humble opinion, that is and of itself - an immoral choice as well. You can't prevent immoral choices through immoral choices.

Life begins at conception but liberty and the pursuit of happiness has not yet begun for an unviable fetus unable to live outside the womb.

I am for individual choice. While abortion is legal all individuals are free to choose. If abortion were illegal all individuals would not be truly free.

I'm sorry but an unviable fetus unable to live outside the womb is not yet fully an individual. You can call me cold and callous, but the more you argue for the rights of those that are unable to live outside the womb, the more you argue against the rights of those who are living outside the womb.

 

You would have each person pay taxes into an account and then either allow their account to be accessed for others or for themselves?

I like your reasoning here but it's not constitutional. A good argument for, would be taxation without representation, but as it stands, you are represented by your taxes just as the taxes of others represent you as well. You would be limited to only what you alone could afford for yourself, which would also be unconstitutional since all individuals are equally free through equal rights and representations.

The Constitution allows for the "laying and collecting of taxes" and it allows for perpetuation of the "general welfare", which means it would be unconstitutional to institute a system in which your taxes would only go to you and those of your choosing instead of to the "general welfare" of all individuals - including yourself.

Would you pay for defense? Or would you assume you didn't need it until it was too late? If you saved your defense tax money and someone else paid it and we were invaded, would soldiers have to protect you or your humble abode? If they did, would you owe them just your life or also back payments of aforementioned withheld personal defense taxes?

I appreciate that you want your money to go only for what you believe in it should go for but the general welfare of all (including yourself) must come before the general welfare of only yourself or those who can afford a personal army.

 

So Gemini are you saying you would impose no restrictions on women who can easily pay for an abortion (i.e. without Federal moneies), in getting one?

 

Not a single one. I'd try to persuade them to do otherwise and promote what I feel are superior options. But, at the end of the day they are only as restricted as their conscience is.

I'm sure your regular pro-lifer would, but that is their cross to bear I suppose.

Free Agency, it is pretty damn important to me. Even if I don't like how you use it, you should be able to use it as long as you bear the responsibilities for it.

 

I believe our government on most levels is corrupt yes. I believe they legislate morality and because of that our society is paying the penalty.

Who made Roe v Wade.....legal? The people? no

SCOTUS DID.

Since the late 1800 abortion was illegal. Not only was it a crime...but it was looked at as sin. Why sin? Our Christian roots had something to do with this and how it was viewed. Had we been a secular country, abortion would have always been legal. States after that had their own laws..but when Roe was passed....things changed.
But the Court stated that through the end of the first trimester of pregnancy, a pregnant woman and her doctor ONLY have the right legally to make the decision about an abortion. States can restrict second-trimester abortions only in the interest of the woman's safety. How many women from 12 weeks to 24 weeks do it for safety? Women can abort and do it all the time between this time period.

So the intentions of Roe.....were violated from the get go.

The first trimester is 12 weeks....half way to when most unborns are viable. Most pro-aborts here....believe that a woman should be able to abort up until viability. This is not what Roe stipulates.

The SCOTUS would have to overturn Roe to make it illegal. This is why sides fight so hard to put someone on the bench that represents their side.

 

But YOU want to legislate morality.....why is it OK for you but not for anyone else.


And why do you think making abortion illegal will end abortions?


Ya, silly question I know because you won't ever answer it....


What society is paying what penalty? I 'm not paying any penalty and I'm part of society....

 

Most governments don't take morality into account when legislating .. they realize that morals are different for almost every person.

It is also a sin for a man to cut his hair or for a woman to wear 'pants', do you want those made illegal as well.

The first state in the US to make abortion illegal was Connecticut in 1821 and by 1900 most states had abortion laws in place, prior to that abortion was governed by common law established from standard laws from the UK, and even after 1821 abortion was only considered a crime after "quickening" ie when the mother felt the fetus move, usually around the 4th month.

Roe vs Wade actually states the following;

so a woman, according to this, can have an elective abortion up to 24 weeks, but as you say 12 weeks.

Mental health also comes into the Roe vs Wade decision, not just physical health.

The only way this could be overturned is if it could be shown that the decision was at fault .. yet after 40 years you can't.

 

Which would include the US Supreme Court....which you place your hopes on overturning Roe in???

BTW, a majority of the USSC now....was nominated by a "pro-life" Republican (Reagan, Bushs)......you've got the majority. Roberts, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, Kennedy....all picked by "pro-life" Presidents. 5-4....all it takes.

So....why aren't they overturning it? Why isn't some Religious Right law group, like Jay Sekulow's ACLJ, taking Roe directly to the Courts and saying "Overturn this"?

 

And then I could ask how overturning RvW would end abortions and would get the same response you did ...nothing.

 

Point of fact;

No babies are "killed" in an abortion.

Just in case you missed human reproduction biology 101 here are the correct terms for the extent of a pregnancy;

Fertilization

Fertilization describes the stage in which the female reproductive cell, known as the egg, and the male reproductive cell, known as the sperm, comes together. Fertilization begins as soon as the sperm penetrates the egg and the process lasts for approximately 24 hours, according to The Visible Embryo.

Zygote

Once the sperm penetrates the zona pellucida--the tough outer membrane surrounding the egg, it fuses with the nucleus of the egg, forming a zygote. As the zygote moves through the fallopian tube toward the uterus, it divides from one cell into two cells, then from two cells info four cells, and so on.

Morula

Approximately four days following fertilization the zygote contains 16 cells, referred to a morula for its shape, and enters the uterus.

Blastocyst

As cell division continues, a blastocele, or cavity, forms in the center of the morula, marking the beginning of the blastocyst stage. The cells inside the cavity flatten creating two types of cells; the cells inside the blastocele known as embryoblasts and the cells outside the blastocele known as trophoblasts.

Embryo

The cells in the blastocyst begin to differentiate, marking the beginning of the embryo. During the embryo stage the group of cells elongates into a human-like shape and the internal organs begin to develop. Eight weeks following fertilization, or by the tenth week of pregnancy, most organs with the exception of the brain and spinal cord are fully formed transforming the embryo into a fetus.

Fetus

During the remaining weeks of pregnancy the fetus continues to develop. By week 12, the fetus fills the uterus making it extend beyond the pubic bone, according to the Merck Manual. Between weeks 16 and 20 the mother can feel the fetus moving. The brain continues to accumulate new cells and the lungs continue to mature until the time of delivery when the fetus becomes a newborn baby.

any of the above is perfectly adequate, calling it a baby is not.