Pro-Palestinian crowds try to storm air base housing U.S. troops in Turkey

Ah that's what you were referring to...
Hamas controls everything in Gaza, some think its throu fear I think the ppl there look up to them and see it as part of an Independence war while the end justify the means.
Hamas only strength, their only weapon, the only way they managed to get something out of Israel and the world is by their civilian casualty numbers - and that most crucial imperative appeal to the world - according to you - remains honest.
Recent rocket on Gaza hospital proved the numbers are just a game to them, how the hell could they count 500 dead in 30 minutes ??? never mind they got it wrong

 

That should not be the objective, especially in this case. The objective should be to remove Hamas from power while keeping civilians alive and improving the lives of Palestinians, thus reducing support for Hamas.

 

Hey ill jump on that cloud with you as soon as another country tries and survives this method of yours - to defeat your enemy by giving to him what he wants.

 

Straw man-- or can't you read? The PRINCIPLE OF PROPORTIONALITY is that civilian deaths are tolerable only up to the degree equal to that of the military benefit gained through the action, in which those collateral casualties are incurred. IOW, it is not excusable to kill a building's worth of civilians, in order to kill just a couple of Hamas members, in its basement.

 

Break it down to a more simple situation, a man is holding a hostage in front of him and taking shots at you, while he shots at you explain please how can the objective be "don't harm the hostage" ?
The objective is live!

 

I have never been to Israel or Gaza and wouldn't want to live in either of them. Still, for as long as I can remember the people there have been killing each other and I don't expect that to change in my lifetime or yours. I don't think this war is going to buy peace for either side but I remember how this episode started and can completely understand the reaction to the attack on Israel. Who knows, maybe it will buy some peace for however long it takes to reconstitute the Hamas fighting organization.

 

How dare the Palestinians want to keep their lives and be treated like human beings! That's right, you guys stay strong, and double down on dehumanizing the Palestinians. It might help you sleep at night if you think of them as just animals.

I can't imagine why the Palestinians became your enemy. I can't imagine why Hamas came into existence.

Israeli policy against Palestine created Hamas, and now you want to double down on what created your enemy. Amazing strategy. Pure ****ing genius.

 

Of course the objective is don't shoot the hostage. Would you shoot through the hostage?? WTF?

 

Post the international law that requires "proportionality".

 

But it is the objective. It always has been and always will be.

 

Which is exactly why Israel has been so ****ed up over the years. So, by your own admission, it has not worked. It is time for a new way of doing things in Israel.

 

so a Jan 6th like attack?

 

Article 51(7) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.


Pursuant to Article 8(2)(b)(xxiii) of the 1998 ICC Statute, “tilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.


Geneva Convention IV


Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: “The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”

 

The IDF has a responsibility to protect Israeli civilians from Hamas and others like them, just as the US military is there to protect Americans, among others.

War is a messy business that leads to unwanted, unintended deaths, but right now the IDF and Israel's leaders have little option but to continue as they are. It is not tenable to allow Hamas to continue to threaten innocent people, especially after their heinous attack on October 7.

Why is that less important? How do you decide which lives are more important? And are you considering the death and suffering that failing to destroy Hamas will likely lead to in the future?

 

<Google Snip>
The rule of proportionality requires that the anticipated incidental loss of human life and damage to civilian objects should not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected from the destruction of a military objective.Oct 24, 2022
https://lieber.westpoint.edu › propor...
Proportionality in International Humanitarian Law: A Principle and a Rule
<End Snip>

I am providing this brief summary, instead of the actual U.N. resolutions, unanimously adopted, because I think you will find it easier to understand and because, if you care to read the specific legal wording, there is nothing stopping you from doing so. They are more fulsome treatments and so, naturally, of greater length-- and I believe you are one who has complained about posts you find to be too long, and have dismissed them on that basis, claiming they were too long to read.

Here are the synopses of a couple of specific, recent resolutions, including their corresponding numbers and the year in which they were passed, all dealing with civilian harm, in wartime:

<Google Snip #2>
Unanimously adopting resolution 2573 (2021) — “Protection of Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Civilian Population” — the Council also strongly condemned the starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, which may constitute a war crime.Apr 27, 2021
https://press.un.org › 2021 › sc145...
Security Council Strongly Condemns Attacks against Critical Civilian ...
<End Snip #2>


<Google Snip #3>
On 24 May 2018 the UN Security Council passed Resolution 2417 on the Protection of Civilians in armed conflict. Resolution 2417 calls upon all states to uphold international humanitarian law in conflict and ensure accountability for mass atrocity crimes.
https://www.globalr2p.org › resources
Resolution 2417 (Protection of Civilians) S/RES/2417
<End Snip #3>


<Snip>
Resolution 2286 (Protection of Civilians) S/RES/2286
3 May 2016
RESOLUTION
On 3 May 2016 the UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 2286 on “healthcare in armed conflict.” Drafted by Egypt, Japan, New Zealand, Spain and Uruguay and co-sponsored by 84 UN Member States, the resolution calls for greater protection for healthcare in armed conflict, noting that intentional attacks against hospitals and medical personnel are war crimes.
<End Snip>

 

Civilians do not make a target immune from attack. They should try and limit the civilian deaths but the way these heathens cover their targets with civilians gives little room for prevention.

They are trying to limit to the best of their ability but they are in fact targeting military targets that the enemy has illegally (and are war criminals for) covering their assets with civilians. That’s on them, not Israel.

They have to get ugly for those who are fighting ugly.

 

The hospital attack was that of a Hamas failed rocket launch which further adds proof to their war crimes of hiding assets behind civilians.

 

Resolution 2417 is is about humanitarian efforts. They have humanitarian efforts in Gaza as we speak

here is one example
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...irdrop-of-urgent-medical-aid-to-gaza-hospital

To say they are not affording humanitarian aid is a falsehood only peddled by those against Israel. This also goes for your first snip on post 90

 

Completely agree.

Disagree completely. What is your basis for this assertion? If there are tunnels that need be destroyed, underneath residential homes, or civilian infrastructure, like hospitals, what prevents Israel giving those specific civilians, adequate warning? Are those tunnels going anywhere, so that they won't still be there, in a couple of hours, or even in 12 hours?

Evidence of this contention? Appearances are certainly to the contrary-- not just to me, but to the nations of the world, at large. Even the leaders of our own country, have signalled they believe that Israel is being too indiscriminate, & is ignoring concerns of civilian well being.

While neither of us knows whether this is true, in all cases, I will grant that the targets are all military, for the sake of argument. But this does not support your conclusion, that therefore Israel has no responsibility for trying to reduce civilian casualties, as by giving sufficient notice of impeding strikes, when these tunnels underlie civilian buildings.

Blatantly erroneous conclusion. Because a country is attacked by terrorists, does not grant it license to take on terrorist tactics, themselves.

Yours is a funny, and transparently disingenuous argument. First you say that the IDF is trying their best to limit civilian casualties; then you say, but there is nothing they can do, to limit civilian losses.

 

Oh, BS. Hamas is never going to be able to get the drop on Israel like that again. There is no chance of Hamas killing anywhere near that many civilians again. The death of so many innocents is completely pointless, besides making some giddy for killing muslims.

 

We support hamas?

 

I agree. We should immediately cut off all money going to Palestinians.

 

Looks like Israel is following the proportionality rule. Hamas is still operational, so Israel can keep attacking.

At no time has Israel targeted civilians.

 

There was an air base attacked on J6?

Link?

 

Israel has always backed off. That's why it was only temporary. Hopefully, they don't stop until Hamas no longer exists.