Proselytizing

Politics always butts into our religious affairs. Yes Liberal? There would be less need for local charities and food banks if the liberals hadn't co-opted what the churches did and do by having the Government take over and creating a welfare state with no incentive to work.

 

Well, of course God has willed it. He wishes none to perish. I think we all need a lesson in what is God's Will. We seem to get hung up on what His will is for us and overlook what God's will is for all. Don't you think?

 

The will of God is not the will of man this is true and for us to accept Christ we must accept that it is not the days of Judges and we must accept the fact that our ability to compel others stops when they say no. Christ knocks with you as the medium and those who do not open the door to him are lost.

He knocks; He does not block the door open with His foot. A christian compels with witness and love. If this is not accepted there is no next level. We do not push.

Remember it is whosoever believeth; not whosoever that is forced.

 

I never lumped all Christians in with that group. Most Christians don't go door-to-door pestering people. My questions was about how Christians feel when Christians do come to their door to proselytize. I wondered if the majority of Christians who are polite, courteous, respectful people appreciated these people coming to their door. It's not like their saying, "I'm a Presbyterian," protects them from the lecture. The odd people who come to my door have never been Presbyterian, Espicopalean, Lutheran, Methodist, or Catholic. Yes, I've had personal friends in all these faiths, and Moslems, who took an opportunity to proselytize but usually just a look would shut them up. No, the door thumpers are Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventist, Baptists, Church of Christ, and a bunch of odd groups, or cults, that don't exactly have names.

I suppose I was thinking a Lutheran would be no happier to see a Jehovah's Witness on the porch than would I.

BFOJ: "Besides most of us Christians speak out against those that act out a non-Christian attitude and behavior. They are really just worldly people."
I would suggest that the response in this thread would argue against that. A thread about the people knocking on doors is obviously not about all Christians but the tendency of some to react to any criticism of any church is clear.

 

Funny and I did cut off some of your other points but I think this alone can be addressed. Most of it is common knowledge but I feel worth the post.

First off you have the basic Catholic and Protestant and then it separates even more.

Early in the 2nd millennia the Catholic church split (Great Schism) first and it was pretty much politics. Now we have Main stream Catholic and Orthodoxy which both have sub groups. We will ignore the Orthodoxy's from here forward and focus on the Catholic. Who had been going door to door making forced conversions for years.

In Europe many times your choice was Christ or rebuke, prison, death.This had nothing to do with Christ and salvation but everything to do with power and politics. Martin Luther came along with his thesis and caused more problems. Calvin added to this with more focus on the doctrine of the elect...... Move forward and people are still fearing the knock at the door because they can be dragged out of their homes and either converted or executed.

There is a lot more history here but what I am getting at is that knock on the door by a man of faith could mean conversion or death up until the 18th Century. Things are heard and actions observed. We do not like door to door proselytizing because of a deep down fear for our lives. We do not know it is there but from the examples of our ancestors through the generations we have developed a fear of strangers knocking at the door with a holy book in hand. If there are two it is even worse.

 

Without repeating what has been posted in regards to 'door knockers' in general; personally I'm against anyone coming to my door without it being an emergency---I even want my friends & family to call & notify/get permission to come by as I have to clean up (myself & my house) so as to receive them with some preparedness.

Also, as an outward witness for Jesus Christ, I believe that this type of 'proclaiming the Good News" does more to drive ppl away from 'religion' in general than it does to minister to them and attract them---would like to see a poll on the effectiveness of such intrusive 'shot gun' witnessing!

However, in summary, I must say that the above post is the saddest that I have ever seen coming from a 'Christian."

[BTW, my son went to a Lutheran Christian school for several years..the above posted attitude was not the norm for the Lutheran church that was hosting the school!]

 

It seems only to be Americans that have this strange fear of being overrun by people on their properties. There is hardly any place in Europe where a trespasser would be shot only for trespassing, so it certainly has nothing to do with ancient European history.

I (who am a European) actually miss the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses that would come knocking on weekends. Of course, back then we got visits from people who had all sorts of things to sell besides religion and that was tedious. Nowadays any kind of door-to-door soliciting, whether it's encyclopedias or religion, is no longer allowed (charitable purposes excluded). Not because it's considered dangerously invasive but because it's annoyingly invasive.

 

In your opening paragraph you start by identifying yourself in the singular... "I". Then in your final paragraph you expand your language to include "we". Not once, but twice. Who is this "we"?

 

Really? Move to some Islamic countries. Oh wait a little while because Europe is the next Muslim world.

The American attitude is different from the European attitude. Learn some history will ya. Hell the English who came to America for religious freedom did not even come from England. They came from Holland.

Anyway America was founded (partly) because we don't want faith forced down our throats. The habits are formed from years of persecution by Christians. You can say all you want and we can debate this if you like but Europe is not America.

 

I start this post by referring to me and end it by referring to you.

There is a difference between people who have something to say and people who have to say something.

Now go figure who this "you" is.

 

I say we as a cultural collective. We does not mean everyone it means we that do not want you beating down our door with a Bible.

If you cant grasp context how can you even post? If it does not pertain to you then you are not we.

 

Thanks for that clarification. I, as one, am not fearful of people knocking at my door. Oh, trust me, I can grasp context, and was only desiring to make sure that you did as well.

BTW: Why engage a whole community of Bible thumpers by opening your homes (via the internet) when you say you don't want those same people banging on your doors? There is a certain curiousness within that framework.

 

I believe that's exactly what I said. It was you who tried to say that the American attitude of having fear of strangers originates from a European attitude that was developed from threats of convert or die.

In fact, I would dare to place a bet on the exact opposite of what you say, namely that trespassers without a holy books in their hands are more likely to be run off the land in USA than when carrying a holy book in their hands.

 

It did originate in the med area, migrated up through Europe and over to the Americas. Look at what the Spanish did to the natives.

As far as part two of your post; well, there is no need to bet. If I see someone with a Bible I know what to expect. If I see someone crossing my yard or moving in my yard I know they are retrieving a basket ball (no problem), lost or up to no good because I have the perimeter of my yard posted. I would never treat a Bible thumper harshly because they are doing what they have been charged to do. I can ask them to leave. As for the rest if they are taking an ATV across my lawn I call the cops if I can not catch them and tell them to stay off of my lawn. I have rotten soil and grass don't grow easily.

 

Freeware: "It seems only to be Americans that have this strange fear of being overrun by people on their properties."

I'm not sure what kind of person would equate being irritated at self-centered people disturbing you with fear. When I get a phone call from someone wanted to sell me a burial plot or a politician I'm not frightened but I am irritated. When someone stops me on the street to tell me I need to sign their petition I'm not frightened but I am irritated. When I pass someone demonstrating a whiz-bang slice and dice magic machine I'm neither frightened nor irritated because I'm free to just continue on my way.

But, imagining some sort of strange fear is bizarre. I suppose it would be someone who is so ruled by fear and who would assume everyone else is ruled by fear and frightened, too. But, I don't want to frighten you, Freeware, so stay calm. But, please understand I'm not frightened just irritated.

 

Altho I have done some 'door knocking' in my early Christian past, it was to 'visit' a church attendee who filled out a Guest Card during their attendance to a service. We would go in groups of 3 (always at least 1 woman so as not to appear as a threat!) and would only go inside if 'invited,' usually it was by a woman who's spouse was an unbeliever---many who were raised around going to church but were driven away by 'religious ppl.'

We would welcome them and ask if they needed any help or assistance while we were there and then close with a prayer. Our church had a volunteer men's moving committee who would get together 2 Sat's/month to move someone who was moving locally (using the church supply van), or was moving out of the area that had their own moving van. It's pretty amazing how 10-12 guys working together (esp with many months previous efforts) could quickly load a van!! And BTW, guys, when you do this 2/mo it will help keep you in shape!

We also provided many men's activities/retreats that were based around outdoor activities/sports that made the newbies feel more comfortable with 'religion.' All of the men in leadership 'purposed in our hearts not to be judgmental but accept everyone at whatever level they were at in the Christian walk---many were but 'spiritual babies.'

The moving ministry/retreats/monthly musical-chair family dinners, etc. all caused the church to grow by leaps and bounds---ppl could see and were attracted to 'the love of Christ' in action. Effective witnessing, demonstrating the love walk, and not just rapping on a door randomly and adding notches to your 'spiritual pistol.'

 

That is great. My church does follow ups as well that little visitors card can save so many.

 

I had a couple problems with our church's Guest follow up visits---they were not announced! We eventually changed that to a pre-visit phone call B4 showing up. Also we had been schooled in the "Evangelism Explosion' method of presenting the Gospel. But my wife and I would rely on the 'leading of the Spirit' at the time, and often without putting anybody on the spot to make a 'pressured instantaneous' decision at that time. The Gospel that reaches ppl where they are cannot be 'canned' and presented with a sales pitch! It needs to be 'tailored' (leading of the Spirit) for the individual, and often is but a glancing conversation and w/o the usual religious lingo..

 

Good, then we're on the same page.

I was responding to Archer0915's sophistry about some kind of historically instilled fear of strangers carrying a holy book. As I said, I cannot recognize such a fear.

Unless, of course, it is the same fear that makes it ok to shoot strangers on one's own property. But then it's mainly an American thing and not European as Archer0915 would have us believe.

 

Funny, this is supposed to a contribution.

The topic is about missionaries. Unfortunately, absent the discussion from atheism is anything of substance. All I see are personal anecdotes and personal pot shots.

If atheism could see the world, or even this issue out side the purview of their own door (that self again), they would be able to acknowledge why some people go door to door religion. Some people need it, and respond to it. There within missionary circles, amazing stories of conversion and simple compassion that do not leas to conversion but are powerful statements on the power of someone caring enough to knock on a strangers door.

Of course, when our real intent is to lecture condescendingly, any thing out side that limited intent to justify can and is safely ignored.

We see that a lot in modern atheism for some reason.

 

Europe is not America as you well know. The fears came from Europe and I am not saying that it is a recognized fear. It; in most cases, is learned behaviour.

Ever heard of genetic memory? It is real. over 3000 years (about 1500 for Christianity and Islam) of people being snatched out of their homes and being executed by people that claimed faith (Christian, Muslim, Jew).

Why did I say Jew? Villages of non believers were wiped off of the face of the earth according to the OT. I am not going to get into the fact and fiction argument but understand that most people (Believers) did what they were told and understood how they were told.

If the Bishop said "All non believers are to be converted or killed as God had commanded the Jews in Exodus And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour" people were killed.

If the King of England made such an order the same was done. Religion was the tool of evil men and the power hungry for millenia. America was the home of those who wanted no part of it but then they became what they fled from. For many in America door slamming is learned behaviour.

 

Not really. And not at my Church. Unless you mean in a subtle underlying way....tax exemption in as a way to muzzle govt criticism (that IS the deal, you know), and hatred of Christians by the left. Tacit approval of Jihadists by the left because of their violent attacks on America - which Constitution hating lefties like...

Context?

Well, I agree with you there, whole-heartedly.

 

As per the Parable of the Sower, the Sower sows the seed (which is the Word of God) and it lands on 4 types of soil: the hardened path (as in hardened hearts), the rocky soil (providing fast growth, but is shallow having no depth), the one with thorns & thistles (the cares of this life), and the good soil (prepared, ready to recv & produce a crop).

Cold, random 'door knocking' does spread some of the seed, but how effective is it to being recvd by the various soils and being fruitful?! The Sower is also a farmer who can 'prepare' (with God's leading and by His Spirit) the soils to recv by cultivating them---which is done with the love of God and fertilizer added via continued offering of the presented Word. When the soil is ready, then sow the seed, and let God water it and produce the final crop during its 'season.'

Many atheists on this forum are having their hard, rocky, weedy soils prepared on a daily basis (un-be knownst to them!) and may produce a fruitful crop in due time....when men come to the 'end of themselves' (and their reasoning powers being helpless to chg their situations), is when God can do His work....that is the fact of 'my' story.'

 

So how exactly is someone being selfish when they stop to share something with you? The selfish one is the one demanding that he be left alone at all costs because everyone else is so irritating. Pretty much defines selfish does it not?

The simple fact of the matter is that there are billions of people in the world, and most are quite nice. Try striking up a conversation in the line at a grocery store, find out about other people families, allow them to share and simply listen and see things brighten around you. Or you can be the snarling curmudgeon that no one dares talk to? Happy?

The simple fact of the world is that moving things forward requires consensus in the world to move things forward, I would challenge all the atheists in this forum to pick a project they want to see move forward and attempt to generate enough consensus to move forward. Then see if you appreciate the curmudgeons who view you as the scum of the earth with the same appreciation.

No matter how irritated you get, no matter how much effort you put into yourself, the world is not going to change to relieve your irritation. It is encumbant upon you to adjust (think evolution and adaptation) or generate the necessary consensus to effect change.

Good luck with the snarling curmudgeon approach.

 

Very true brother, my own journey away from atheism bears out the truth of that statement.