Republicans softening on abortion.

Awesome logic.

Nature kills people everyday, so murder should be legal.

I'm conservative pro-choice within specific parameters.

 

Far more important? Maybe, maybe not.

Constitutionally protected verse not. Yes. Absolutley.

 

Democracy only works because we can concievably, if necessary, fight our way out of whatever trouble the morons in society might vote us into. I wont be involved in any abortions. I hate abortion. Body autonomy is important, but abortion is only a precedential issue for me. If you wanna try to shame someone about it, you should try to shame someone else. Its not 'healthcare' for the majority of people who kill their children, its usually vanity and selfishness, not unlike shooting someone for trying to steal ur tv- its evil. I dont want to impose my moral beliefs about abortion onto others, but I sure as hell aint gonna have your moral beliefs about guns imposed onto me either.

 

I understand that you think abortion is a version of murder but I'll be honest and tell you I do not understand that mind set. I understand that you have it, I just don't understand it.
To equate the removal of a collection of cells no bigger than a walnut to the shooting of an 8 year old child is beyond my ability to understand.

 

Not all, there are some states that have just passed a 6 week limit. !!!!
Too many have dug their heels into a losing cause.

 

Shooting an 8 year old child is evil too. Why would you think I'm OK with that? I presume you own a shovel or a hammer, I wouldn't also presume you support beating an 8 year old child to death with one... that would be stupid and ridiculous. Yet that's what you just insinuated of me because I don't want to ban guns. Why did you do that?

Most abortions are performed after the 'clump of cells' has a detectable heartbeat, which is around 6 weeks. I don't really have a problem with the morning after pill (which I don't really even consider to be 'abortion'). I'm looking at it from an 'invasive' vs 'noninvasive' standpoint, where one has to go and have someone else do it. I recognize the subjective nature of trying to figure out exactly when a 'fetus' becomes a legal human, and thats part of why I don't want to try and regulate it with laws.

 

the anti-choicers also want to make it a crime to dispose of the leftover cells in the petri dish of In Vitro

 

I never said you were OK with it. I said I don't understand how you can equate that with an abortion.

And no, most abortions occur within the first 13 weeks (first trimester, about 93% of all abortions). The "fetal heartbeat" is a lie told by Republicans to get support for their position. You can't have a heartbeat until you have a functioning heart. What they call a "fetal heartbeat" is simply electrical impulses in the cells that will eventually become a heart. It isn't until about 17 to 20 weeks that a heart actually develops.

 

I didn't. I equated most abortions with shooting someone who is running away with your TV. Both cases are the sacrifice of a human life for convenience or, at worst, financial or material security. Similarly, abortions where the mother's life is at risk, I would say equate well with self defense, and are thus not only justified, but to some individuals possibly even obligatory.

Well that doesn't seem to be true. But to be fair, your confusion on the issue is common enough among others to warrant a detailed factcheck:

When Are Heartbeats Audible During Pregnancy? - FactCheck.org :
"Heart Development 101
We consulted multiple embryology textbooks and several scientific reviews and research papers to learn about heart development, and also spoke with a pediatric cardiologist and researcher, Colin Phoon of New York University Langone Health.

A good rule of thumb, according to Phoon, is that heart development occurs over a four-week period, starting in the sixth week of pregnancy. Before the sixth week, he said, “There is no heart; there’s nothing beating.”

Textbooks and scientific papers don’t always give the same exact dates for each milestone, and the timing is often extrapolated from animal studies. So scientists may eventually learn more and revise their timelines. But a general consensus is that around 21-23 days after conception, two groups of cells that form a horseshoe shape fuse together to form a tiny, hollow tube. This tube is known as a heart tube, and initially is very simple. It’s straight, a bit like a straw, and doesn’t have any chambers that are typical of a developed heart.

Very soon after the tube forms, some cells of the tube begin to spontaneously contract, creating the first heartbeat, although the heart tube may not pump blood for another day or two. Textbooks and papers also peg this to approximately 21-23 days after fertilization, or what would be five completed weeks of pregnancy, or a few days into the sixth week.

Over the next several days, the heart tube elongates and loops, bending and twisting into a more recognizable heart shape. “It does a bunch of funny convolutions,” said Phoon. “It has to curve on itself, it has to loop. It eventually has to become four chambers and four valves,” he said, adding that the veins and arteries — including the aorta, which exists as a series of vessels early-on — must also develop.

The process of forming separated heart chambers begins around 28 days, or six completed weeks of pregnancy, as tissue starts to form to divide up the tube. The chambers include the upper left chamber, or left atrium, which after birth will collect oxygen-rich blood coming from the lungs, as well as the right atrium, which collects oxygen-depleted blood coming from the rest of the body. The two lower chambers, or ventricles, perform the reverse functions, and pump blood back out to either the lungs or the rest of the body. In the embryo and fetus, oxygen comes not from the lungs, but from the mother, via the placenta.

The last key elements of the heart that begin to develop are the valves, which are important flaps between the upper and lower chambers and between the ventricles and the major arteries. These make sure blood moves only in one direction through the heart.

Chamber and valve formation take about three weeks to wrap up. Based on 3D imaging of human embryos, scientists are able to identify all of the major structures after nine weeks and one day of pregnancy, when the entire process is largely complete.

That’s not to say that heart development doesn’t continue. As one cardiology textbook explains, “The heart is the first functional organ in the mammalian embryo; however, its full development spans the whole intrauterine period and is finished only in the postnatal period.” There is, for example, some fine tuning of the valves later in pregnancy, and of course, the entire heart continues to grow. Cardiac muscle also changes its composition and structure over time, including a shift to a more mature helical organization well into the second trimester. But the majority of the developmental action occurs within those first nine to 10 weeks."

TLDR: detectable 'heartbeat' at 6 weeks, heart chamber and valve formations complete at 9 weeks, heart developement continues throughout entire pregnancy.

 

There are tons of Republicans that aren't so adamant and ardent about abortion along side the many who are.

 

And the other side wants to provide rapists with easy victims by denying her second amendment rights.

 

Democrats started this by trying to abort babies that are already born.

Their plan to do so is no more complicated than laying the baby on a cold metal tray until it starves.

Democrats.

 

https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ryo,around 16 to 18 weeks, according to Kerns.

Texas recently passed Senate Bill 8, a law that prohibits abortion at 6 weeks of pregnancy.

Also dubbed the “the heartbeat bill,” the law — which went into effect Sept. 1 — bans abortion at the first detection of a fetal heartbeat, which occurs around 6 weeks of pregnancy.

But reproductive health specialists say that at 6 weeks, an embryo doesn’t have a fully formed heart, but rather a cluster of cells that emits electrical signals.

Those cells will eventually form into a heart around 8 weeks after the last menstrual cycle.

It isn’t until 16 to 18 weeks of gestation that the heart, valves, and vessels can be seen on an ultrasound.

According to Dr. Jennifer Kerns, an associate professor in the department of obstetrics, gynecology, and reproductive sciences at the University of California, San Francisco, the term “fetal heartbeat” doesn’t accurately represent what is detected at 6 weeks of pregnancy.

“The term ‘heartbeat’ is very misleading for a 6-week embryo. What is labeled a ‘heartbeat’ is actually the electrical activity that can be seen on ultrasound,” Kerns told Healthline.

 

The pro abortion crowd has no conscience. They truly want to see more abortions in American. They view childbirth as something which should be discouraged. In their mind opposition to abortion is evil

 

A strong majority also believes that there needs to be enforceable restrictions. Abortion on demand at any point for any reason is the minority position.

 

Sorry, but I gotta say you're wrong. Up here in the U.S., the conservative agenda since the Roe v Wade decision was first handed down in the 70s has been to regain control over women. We already had "moderate" rules, such as no third trimester abortions unless rape, incest, or medical need were proven, and taxpayer money did not go towards paying for abortions (Google the Hyde Amendment).

 

I don't really consider myself a Republican, more of a Trump fan, but have supported common sense abortion procedures in the past, and still do.

 

Not in my mind. Respectfully.

 

So we have detactable 'beats' at 6 weeks, a doctor in NY that says the heart has complete chambers and valves at 9 weeks, and a doctor in SF that says the valves and chambers are not detectable on an ultrasound until 16 weeks. All can be true, btw... But this is the sort of subjectivity that I find problematic in trying to regulate/legislate abortion, and partially why I oppose doing so, even though I hate abortion.

What I still don't get is what point you were trying to make about 'shooting 8 year old kids' and why that means I should support abortion rights but not gun rights...

 

Describes me precisely.

 

No abortions allowed is draconian. No abortions after the sixth week is draconian. Threatening medical providers with 20 to life prison sentences is draconian.

Perhaps you aren't clear on the meaning.

dra·co·ni·an. /drəˈkōnēən,drāˈkōnēən/
adjective

1. (of laws or their application) excessively harsh and severe.

 

That's the thing. I was never about abortion, it was always about 'finding new friends' aka VOTERS. It was a top issue for evangelicals but now that its off the table, they realize its costing them tons of independent votes.

 

Don't start none won't be none.

 

A fetus is not a baby, not a person, until it can survive outside the womb. The government does not assign Social Security numbers to fetuses.

No woman's pregnancy is any of your business unless she wants to tell you. It isn't the government's business, either. Read Sections 1 of the 4th and 14th Amendments.

 

They aren't pro abortion, they are pro choice. I maybe would not choose abortion for myself, but I'll adamantly defend the right of any pregnant woman to make her own choice for her own reasons. It's none of my effing business, and certainly none of yours.