serbian terror against Christian Germans in Vojvodina

With the pretext of fighting "Nazism" (forgetting that serbs were Nazi collaborators too), serbs expelled and killed more than 50000 Hungarians and 500000 Germans (Swabians) from Vojvodina.... You can easily conclude - the drastic changing of demographical figures - if you navigate through the "Demographic history of Vojvodina" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Vojvodina

But, now let's focus on the thread, expulsion and killing of Germans by serbs ...

The disappearance of 98.5% of the Yugoslav Germans through expulsion, forced labour, and mass emigration...

********

By Octobre of 1944, the crumbling Third Reich was in retreat from occupied Yugoslavia, and the socialist partisans led by Jozip Broz 'Tito' were victorious over the Swabian and Croatian Fascists and the Serb Cetnik militias. Initially enjoying the close military and political sponsourship of the Soviet Red Army, the new Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia proceeded to arrest segments of the population that were accused of promoting un-socialist 'bourgeois' ideology, supporting reactionary or pro-monarchist movements, or collaborating with the Axis belligerents. The entire Hungarian and German minourities of the reunified Yugoslavia, as well as a large number of Croats, were universally proscribed with suspicion and accused of universally supporting the invading German and Hungarian armies as subversive elements. The near entirety of the Swabian population of Yugoslavia was ordered to be either expelled to occupied Germany or Austria, or interned in prison or forced labour camps. The leading proponents of the Fascist movements among the minourities were, understandably, to be executed outright. Only those cited for conspicious resistance to Fascism or in close affiliation with the socialist partisans would be excluded from the internment camps. The elderly, the young, the infirm, and the women of the Swabian minourity were also subjected to the Yugoslav imprisonment programme, portrayed as enemies of the people and collaborators.

<<It is difficult to determine the total number of German civilians who were subjected to the Yugoslav imprisonment or relegated to emigrate because of Yugoslav discrimination after the war...>>>

Very few ethnic Germans were directly expelled because Allied-occupied Germany and Austria denied them asylum, overburdened by more than 10,000,000 other resettled German expellees. Instead, the vast majourity chose to flee in reaction to the universalised discrimination that the Swabians received in early socialist Yugoslavia due to their accused association with genocide and Fascism. It can properly be assumed that a large proportion of those who fled before the end of the war were guilty of atrocities or direct contribution to the Nazi war effort. This also implies that a vast percentage of those who stayed home in Yugoslavia believed they would not be punished because they were not guilty of Nazi war crimes. Yugoslavia was as much their home as the Germany their ancestors had not seen in two centuries. There were at least 500,000 ethnic Germans in all of Yugoslavia prior to the Axis invasion of 1941 (Stupar), with some statistics citing as many as 541,000 (Prokle 2003, 155), others 520,000 (Los Angeles Times), and others 513,412 (Wolff 2002, 147), at about 4.21% of the total population of Yugoslavia. There were over 98,990 Swabians in Yugoslav Croatia, or 2.9%(Državni Zavod za Statistiku). The Banat and Vojvodina region, formed as an autonomous region of northern Serbia, had over 328,000 Germans (Wolff 2002, 147). Large numbers of Germans fled Yugoslavia at the end of the war, either out of a desire to immigrate to Germany or to escape the inevitable Yugoslav retaliation for Germany's war crimes. This further complicates calculating the exact number of ethnic Germans who were affected by the Yugoslav collective imprisonment policy after the war. The SS and SS-Division Prinz Eugen unsuccessfully organised evacuation contingencies after the war with the desire to relocate the Swabians to the Third Reich. As many as 70,000 Swabians are estimated to have fled the Banat when the Red Army arrived in late 1944 (Zentrum gegen Vertreibung). As many as 16.8% of the Germans in Yugoslavia may have died during the war (Sretenovic 2004, 57). One estimate projects that 10% of the highly-Nazified Banat fled before the end of the war, and 20,000 fled with the Croatian Nazis to Austria (Sretenovic 2004, 54). Official statistics estimate that there were at least 200,000 Germans in Yugoslavia after the war, a reduction of over half the population due to fleeing, retaliatory killings by Yugoslavs, and expulsions (Wehler 1980, 79),(Wengert). The total number of Germans affected by the Yugoslav imprisonment and forced labour programmes therefore encompassed a minimum of 200,000 persons. The vast decrease in the ethnic German population through emigration and fleeing makes it difficult to calculate how many died in Yugoslav camps. So too, it has been argued that as many as 70,000 ethnic Germans and Hungarians concealed their ethnic identity on statistics by masqueraded as Serbs or Croats in order to escape a feared status of discrimination (Ibid., 155). Nearly all of these superficially assimilated Germans would emigrate with the rest of the Swabian community. As a result, statistics may often prove deficient in fully reflecting the morose experience of the former German community of Yugoslavia.


"'There were at least 500,000 ethnic Germans in all of Yugoslavia prior to the Axis invasion of 1941 (Stupar), with some statistics citing as many as 541,000 (Prokle 2003, 155), others 520,000 (Los Angeles Times), and others 513,412 (Wolff 2002, 147), at about 4.21% of the total population of Yugoslavia. There were over 98,990 Swabians in Yugoslav Croatia, or 2.9%(Državni Zavod za Statistiku). The Banat and Vojvodina region, formed as an autonomous region of northern Serbia, had over 328,000 Germans (Wolff 2002, 147). '"

http://expelledgermans.org/danubegermans.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Vojvodina#Germans

I would correct you, Serbs didn't expelled them only it is Yugoslav Government and Mo&#353;e Pijade was Jew.

 

Well, this only proves that ethnic cleansing was perpetrated by local serbs.... pay attention how the percentage of Germans went down from 19.4 % in 1941 census to 1.9 % in 1948. So serbs are very familiar when it comes to ethnic cleansing and expelling. We already have seen it during ex - Yu wars !

 

Well it's not Serb conspiracy theory that can be applied on 90's, like in every country after war 'victim' always attacks those who have same or similar origin with enemy. Moše Pijade himself was famous during the WW2 for excesses where he was sentencing people that they don't support communism without proof - on shooting. Just like Soviets were raping German women after fall of Germany, some partisan units were doing same to German minorities after WW2.

 

btw I think that locals didn't have significant power on that stuff, for simple reason that any significant word said could easily change their destiny. On that issue there is magnificent Drama written by Skender Kulenovi&#263;, 'Djelidba' it is been translated in many other languages as far as I remember and it is worth of reading. It was prohibited to play it in National Theaters all over Yugoslavia when it was released.

 

I disagree with you, in fact I do not share the same opinion with you regarding expelling and killing of Germans. Mosa Pijade by himself couldn't have killed nor expelled all Germans ! It was the local serbs ! Furthermore, I was hinting at serbian 'hyena' nature switching sides to suit their goals. We already know how serbs were Nazi collaborators. The moment the geopolitical forces shifted upside down, they turned to kill their (till yesterday neighbors) Hungarians and Germans !

 

Ideological intoxication of serbian population is old more than one century. You should have payed more attention to the other thread how serbs destroyed Yugoslavia. All segments of serbian society from Academy of Science till the lowest level were in function of paving the road to create 'Greater Serbia' via genocide and 'scorched earth' policy of non - serb lands. 'SANU Memorandum', 'Expulsion of Albanians', 'Homogenous Serbia' and many others institutional documents created and projected by serbian elite , including Karadzic's lingual pretension to consider all serbs were a clear pogrom against others.
We already have seen it in the ex-Yu wars, that the biggest atrocities were committed by so-called serbian neighbors ! Or am I wrong? have you ever seen a serb (even from this forum)condemn genocidal role of Karadzic, Mladic and Milosevic(together with serb population who supported and hailed them) ?!? Instead they try to equal individual acts of non serbs with institutional and systematical genocide of serbs against others !

 

Seriously, that can be considered as huge accusation with no relevant point. Chetnicks were Nazi collaborators and saying Serbs is a bit exaggerating and I would advise you not to emotionally involve into these kinds of discussions because they require neutrality. It is well known that Belgrade aristocrats were openly killed by Chetnicks, in front of the mass for refusing to have any connections with them and refusing to be ruled by them. On the other hand there are SS Skender begu units and Albania was ruled by Italian fascist dictators. On that point can be discussed a lot and saying Serbs is exaggerating and requires more info on that field in your case. Also, to claim something like that you should be familiar with menthality of local Serbs from Vojvodina (local not Bosnian,Croatian and Kosovar Serbs).

Moše Pijade was respected enough to be supported by majority of Communist rulers. Whole country was suffering from Nazis and it was enough to say that Germans were main collaborators to a mass so that mass could act against them without thinking. Other than that, whole eastern block can be accused for executing German civilians after WW2.
There is thread on Hungarians and it should be discussed there.

 

According to Cosic and his co believers at that time universities were 'nests' of communists.
Yes I have seen MANY Serbs condemning acts done by Karadzic, those who puke on Cosic's theories of Serbian purity and of course those who still question:how the hell did Milosevic appear from middle of nowhere. There are lot of such Serbs without any doubt.
Those who try to equalize acts done by non serbs and serbs are simply riot ruled by main sheep with the bell navigating where to move their head, what to watch and what under no circumstances watch. It is also naive to believe that there are no Serb victims, many of them were killed by Milosevic and co. themselves, others were killed brutally by those who were supposed to call themselves defense army or liberation army. As for that many of them were under endless counter fire under siege of Sarajevo during 4 years and were taking part in defense of my country. There are also TRIES to trial them for deaths of SERBS but no one was sentenced because there were no proves that crime was committed. We shouldn't also close our eyes in front of locals insisting on same savage behavior towards anyone else.

 

It doesn't matter really, we already went over this subject few times in the past, but some are pushing their agenda no matter what...until they come again and again to the '90s...predictable and not original.

http://www.politicalforum.com/western-europe/195721-german-people-25.html#post4216076

 

serbs pretend to dislike Milosevitch after he failed, not that they regret nor compassionate with the victims of their genocidal policy !

 

Expelled Germans Demand Compensation
******************************

Ethnic Germans who lost property under the Yugoslav communists are calling on the authorities to compensate them.

Germans expelled from the northern Serbian province of Vojvodina in the aftermath of the Second World War are demanding the restitution of property they lost.

The demand is causing unease, not only among local residents, but also in Belgrade, which hasn't the funds to deal with compensation requests, despite having drawn up a draft law for dealing with the problem.

However, the government will have to address the issue, as restitution of property seized by the communist authorities is one of the preconditions of Yugoslavia joining the Council of Europe.

The compensation request was filed by the Presidency of the World Association of Germans in the Danube region on May 10 this year, in Subotica on Vojvodina's border with Hungary.

Germans from Vojvodina are demanding restitution of property seized by the so-called Anti-fascist Council for the National Liberation of Yugoslavia, AVNOJ, set up in 1944.

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province. Known as Volkdeutschers, they settled there in the 18th century following the Turks withdrawal from southern Hungary.

They had become the third largest ethnic community after the Serbs and Hungarians and a leading economic force between the two world wars.

But after the Second World War, retaliatory measures decimated the population. The Danube association says around 80,000 members of the community lost their lives - mainly women, children and the elderly - in concentration camps in the region. According to a 1991 census, just over 5000 Germans remain in Serbia.

Their confiscated property was mainly distributed to Serbs who fled to Vojvodina from Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro during the war.

The issue became taboo for many years. Katica Andrijevic from Sremska Mitrovica still remembers the time her German neighbours were forced to leave in the early Fifties.

"Franc Haltmayer, his wife Mandica and sons Rudolf, Karl and Viktor were our neighbours," said Ana in the residential area of Rumska malta. "They were good people. We all cried when they left."

She said that, later on, Mandica and her sons often visited Sremska Mitrovica. Viktor even married his former neighbour with whom he used to play as a child.

Germans from Vojvodina, both those who had been forced to leave and the few who stayed behind, now await adoption of denationalisation legislation which will entitle them to compensation for real estate illegally seized from them.

Head of the German National Alliance, Rudolf Weis, and deputy head of the World Association of Germans, Rudolf Reiman, say they ought not to be discriminated just because they are Germans.

Enactment of the law is also eagerly awaited by tens of thousands of Serbs whose property had been confiscated after the war.

However, this is easier said than done. There can be no immediate solution as owners of properties due for restitution have to be found alternative accommodation and the current authorities in Belgrade are too impoverished to compensate people for their loss.

The Serbian justice ministry's denationalisation bill has been highly commended by the international community, but its enactment has been repeatedly postponed. Government sources say it could be held up for another two years.

Property claimants hope that the Council of Europe issue will speed things up. Some Serbs have already said that they intend to take their grievances to the European Court in Strasbourg. One similar lawsuit filed against the Romanian government was enough to get it to adopt restitution legislation within days.

Prominent Belgrade lawyer Milenko Radic warns that German claimants must prove that they have not already received compensation from other sources.

"As far as I know, a large number of Germans from Vojvodina had been compensated in Germany," said Radic, claiming that the German state as well as some international humanitarian organisations have already lent them a helping hand.

Another problem facing the ethnic Germans in their bid for justice is resistance from those now living in their properties. There were tensions last year in the Vojvodina towns of Vrsac and Bela Crkva when ethnic Germans returned to see former homes.

Weis claims members of his community have no desire to create new injustices by reclaiming property. "We are aware that undoing the wrongs of the past could harm other people, but we have to have talks on this matter and find a solution that is best for all," he said.

Reiman agrees. "The return of the seized property, that is, restitution, must not cause new injustices," he said. " Revenge is not our aim."

Jan Briza is an editor of Novi Sad daily "Dnevnik" and regular IWPR contributor.

 

your propaganda is so boring.... I mean this is just a debate and not a news channel ...someone should just ban you for sending all this news spam...

 

do you believe in santa as well ?

 

this is just albanian propaganda ..someone spreading news spam and nothing about any debate or discussion..

 

Are you nervous ? Afraid of revealing true serv face ! Got newsflash for you!!!
Those expelled Germans are requesting compensation :
************
Ethnic Germans who lost property under the Yugoslav communists are calling on the authorities to compensate them.

Germans expelled from the northern Serbian province of Vojvodina in the aftermath of the Second World War are demanding the restitution of property they lost.

The demand is causing unease, not only among local residents, but also in Belgrade, which hasn't the funds to deal with compensation requests, despite having drawn up a draft law for dealing with the problem.

However, the government will have to address the issue, as restitution of property seized by the communist authorities is one of the preconditions of Yugoslavia joining the Council of Europe.

The compensation request was filed by the Presidency of the World Association of Germans in the Danube region on May 10 this year, in Subotica on Vojvodina's border with Hungary.

Germans from Vojvodina are demanding restitution of property seized by the so-called Anti-fascist Council for the National Liberation of Yugoslavia, AVNOJ, set up in 1944.

According to censuses carried out in 1921 and 1931, more than half a million Germans lived in Yugoslavia - 340,000 of them in the northern Serbian province. Known as Volkdeutschers, they settled there in the 18th century following the Turks withdrawal from southern Hungary.

They had become the third largest ethnic community after the Serbs and Hungarians and a leading economic force between the two world wars.

But after the Second World War, retaliatory measures decimated the population. The Danube association says around 80,000 members of the community lost their lives - mainly women, children and the elderly - in concentration camps in the region. According to a 1991 census, just over 5000 Germans remain in Serbia.
Their confiscated property was mainly distributed to Serbs who fled to Vojvodina from Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro during the war.

The issue became taboo for many years. Katica Andrijevic from Sremska Mitrovica still remembers the time her German neighbours were forced to leave in the early Fifties.

"Franc Haltmayer, his wife Mandica and sons Rudolf, Karl and Viktor were our neighbours," said Ana in the residential area of Rumska malta. "They were good people. We all cried when they left."

She said that, later on, Mandica and her sons often visited Sremska Mitrovica. Viktor even married his former neighbour with whom he used to play as a child.

Germans from Vojvodina, both those who had been forced to leave and the few who stayed behind, now await adoption of denationalisation legislation which will entitle them to compensation for real estate illegally seized from them.

Head of the German National Alliance, Rudolf Weis, and deputy head of the World Association of Germans, Rudolf Reiman, say they ought not to be discriminated just because they are Germans.

Enactment of the law is also eagerly awaited by tens of thousands of Serbs whose property had been confiscated after the war.

However, this is easier said than done. There can be no immediate solution as owners of properties due for restitution have to be found alternative accommodation and the current authorities in Belgrade are too impoverished to compensate people for their loss.

The Serbian justice ministry's denationalisation bill has been highly commended by the international community, but its enactment has been repeatedly postponed. Government sources say it could be held up for another two years.

 

I did believed in Santa, when I was a kid ! Nothing can measure with the satisfaction that was given to me via cartoons and animated papers where Santa was portrayed as someone, who once a year fulfills the wishes of children. But that belongs to the past.

So you don't believe in serv as war criminals ?!?

http://www.bosniafacts.info/web/serb_war_criminals.php

 

do you believe in americans as war criminals?

 

i always wondered why do people classify us separately everywhere well I don't think that SERBS are war criminals:













You know when referring to a war crime you have to approach the seriously issue itself. You also have to posses something that's not smattering. Smattering is something that sometimes equalizes you with people using propaganda as an initial mean of defense. If you are able to ignore facts such as:

participation of serbs in war against fascism and nazism in WW2, participation of Serbs in defense of Bosnia if you're already mentioning it, significant number of people in regional public scene of Serb ethnicity publicly speaking up on atrocities committed by CRIMINALS who basically effectively use prefix Serb on every act which is obviously accepted by majority of population in Serbia nowadays- I really advise you not to deal with this sort of issues because if you do so the disappointment you'll face will have a huge impact on your health and nerves. But nevertheless, the impact might be totally opposite and I'm really looking forward to that. Just like propaganda on prefix Serb on crime and war makes an effect on you, that's how it makes on them. Do you know that average Serbian kid perceives Albanians as cannibals for simple reason that 20 years of propaganda in drastic poverty and lack of proper education for their parents gave an extra space for local myths about cannibals or mujaheddins without even knowing what's the whole deal. Yeah when it comes to photos above, those people gave significant yield to existence of Bosnia and Herzegovina today, not as country divided into ghettos and tribal communities but as a country which is their home and their pride.

 

You do not worry about my nerves and health
I think that the Germans seeking compensation it is a great news ! servs must pay for occupying lands of others.
As for serv propaganda we all know why they lie so much ! But the worst of all is that ,even nowadays you can not find a serv capable of repenting !
Still I think that you must agree of German's right to return what was stolen from them after WWII !

 

Your albanian propaganda will not work because everyone know what you guys are all about .

1) Whats your interest in the subject matter if you are not German and albanian?

2) I have an austrian great grandmother and Germans living in those areas where sent as guests because of marriage between the royal families.

3) Germany itself is flooded with MUSLIM TURKISH IMMIGRANTS FEEDING OF THE SOCIALIST WELFARE SYSTEM AND GERMAN FAMILIES ARE NOT PRODUCING ENOUGH OF THEIR OWN ETHNICITIES TO MAKE UP THE GERMAN NATIONAL DEMOGRAPHICS . SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE AN INTEREST TO SEEK MORE LAND FROM OTHER PLACES STRICKEN WITH WAR AND POVERTY.
GERMANY IS AN IMMIGRANT PLACE FOR FORIEGNERS FROM TURKEY,AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST. AND THERE IS A GROWING MUSLIM POPULATION.

 

sincerely, when they moved in there was probably someone else who was living there so why wouldn't Germans once they get their past property back give that property to those people who were living there, and than those people give that property to those who were living there 500 years ago? I think that Serbia has much more serious issues to deal with.

 

LOL- 500 years ago...wow...

you don't give something back because of 500 years ago..LOL...or even 10,000 years ago...

what about the evolution of mankind? Do you think you are obligated to real estate from Jurassic Park? LOL

you only want free real estate for nothing ...LOL..by talking about something 500 years ago..

 

why not?they could form little Germany in Serbia who knows.

 

Whats your interest for a little germany forming in the balkans when Germany itself is populated by North Africans, Arabs, Asians, and Turks?