Settlements in Judea and Samaria are legal

KK;

Yes, I don't recall any Native American Indians having deeds to the Great Plains, or anywhere else. Some shysters fabricated those after the ethnic cleansing.

 

As I recall something like 18% of Israeli land was confiscated from the legal Arab landowners without compensation. Is that land to be returned to the rightful owners?

And how can an "Israeli" legally purchase land from a Palestinian when they are prohibited from moving to the occupied territory by Article 49 of the Geneva Conventions?

I do not, however, propose that the Jews that have moved to the occupied territories be forcefully evicted from property they've purchased. Only the Israeli military must leave according to UNSC 242. It should be left to the Jews living in Palestine as to whether they want to return to Israel or live under Palestinian rule where they would become citizens of Palestine and not Israel. It is the responsibility of a new Palestinian nation to ensure the Rights of All Palestinians regardless of ethnic, religious, racial or any other invidious discriminatory criteria. This is where Israel has failed as a nation as it was founded based upon invidious discriminatory criteria.

 

There is no question that the Rights of the Native-Americans were violated by the US government over 100 years ago but the US government has addressed this to some degree. The violations of the inalienable Rights of the Individual can never be "undone" but it is the responsibility of any government to address these violations. The United States has been addressing this but Israel has done nothing to address the violations of the inalienable Rights of the non-Jewish population of Palestine to my knowledge. When Israel does, such as recognizing the Right of Return and of allowing land owners that had their property confiscated without compensation by allowing access to the courts then I will applaud Israel.

Of course in addressing the inalienable Rights of the Individual the first condition is that a government must stop violating them and Israel has yet to remove it's military from the Palestinian territories which is violating the inalienable Rights of the Palestinians.

 

Indigenous peoples had no legal protection at the time of the ethnic cleansing of North America. The Palestinians do. Only the US of AIPAC prevents the implementation of justice for Zionism's victims. I'm not describing decent Americans, of course. I'm describing the Zionism-manipulated numbnuts in Washington.

 

It's not a state, it's a terrorist missile base.

 

It should be in the process of becoming a State and ensuring the general welfare of its citizenry.

 

The existence of Jews not living under a Muslim theocratic dictatorship is the only "provocation" the jihadists need. From the beginning, the Arabs have tried to destroy Jewish independence. If the loser in a war does not lose territory, there's no incentive for it to give up its aggression. Only after that was done to Turkey did the Turks renounce their 600-year jihad. So it is suicidal for a victorious nation to agree to this lack of effective punishment for aggressors.

Great Britain acquired the Middle East through the sacrifice of millions of British lives, not through a piece of paper mandated by unrealistic One-World organization. The wiser generation of British leaders, the pre-appeasement generation, could foresee a future jihad. They established the Jewish state as a decoy to that. The French contributed by establishing a Christian decoy in Lebanon. The West has no reason to submit to a hostile globalist organization. Signing treaties with it was just for show. Only decadent multiculturalists would take such pieces of paper seriously. Let them eat confetti.

 

In my opinion, not establishing another State in historic Palestine was a "strategic" mistake on the part of the politicians involved.

 

If we and the Israelis have to submit to the childish multicultie fantasy of holding hands with these jealous and violent people, singing Kumbaya around a campfire, we will end up becoming the marshmallows.

 

So you would've been in favour of Germany becoming part of France after WWII, yeah? And Italy become part of Britain? And Japan part of America?

What a ridiculous world view. And I ask again, if the victors, who happen to be recipients of aggression, deserve land belonging to the aggressor, what part of the US should be handed over to the Vietnamese?

- - - Updated - - -

That's not an answer. Apply these standards across the board, or give them up.

 

Americans have never done anything they should be ashamed of. We don't owe anybody anything. If you don't approve of the way things are done in the real world to reward producers and destroy destroyers, it's because you don't realize that your present safety and comfort are a legacy from our self-assertive past.

 

Now don't talk nonsense. That's a daft, pseudo-patriotic claim that could be shredded in moments if it were the topic of the thread, which it ain't.

 

Why do you guys insist in remaining in denial mode.

1) You deny that there were no rocket attacks by the PLO from Lebanon during the 1982 ceasefire, yet the reports from the commander of the UN Observer forces are quite clear on this. Yet Israel went ahead with its invasion and slaughtered 20 000+ people. Only then did the PLO start firing missiles. Yet you, Prometheus Bond, call it a terrorist missile base.

2) Hamas had complied with the terms of the June 2008 ceasefire agreement, as can be seen by the fall in rocket attacks to background levels, but Israel did almost nothing to comply with their side of the bargain, namely the dismantling of the embargo. You ignore that plain fact. Not only that but you deny that the ceasefire of June 2008 was broken by Israel in November 2008. And then you deny that that led directly to a major escalation in rocket fire which in turn led to Operation Cast Lead in which Israel slaughtered 1400+ people in so-called retribution for the death of 3 Israelis. Yet you, Prometheus Bond, call it a terrorist missile base.

3) You deny that each of the major escalations in rocket fire by Hamas in 2012 were each triggered by the assassination by Israel of a Hamas leader a day or two beforehand. Yet you, Prometheus Bond, together with Faux News call Gaza a terrorist missile base.

Can you explain why you hold the victims to be the guilty?

Or are you are REALLY unaware of the verifiable facts due to the appalling quality of the US (and other) media?

 

What an excellent idea. See the "Political Opinions & Beliefs" section of the General Political Chat forum .... 2 below Latest Word News.

 

I can't believe anyone with half a brain would believe, or write, this hysterically disingenuous crap. If you believe starting unnecessary wars, unseating and deposing democratically elected governments, torture, extraordinary rendition, imprisonment without trial and bombing the crap out of tens of thousands of civilians is an example of 'assertiveness' and nothing to be ashamed of, you must be living on a different planet to normal people. You're welcome to go to 'Prometheus'; it's as much a work of fiction as your post. I hope you'll be happy there...

 

Moons suggestion ... it deserves its own thread

Here is a link to "its own thread" The list grows by the minute.
http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...-never-done-anything-they-should-ashamed.html

 

This is going a bit far; the US does not consider the settlements to be legal at all.

 

Twisted 'rambling'... please go open a book of history... I would like to retort to the above, but I decided to keep my energy for more onerous opponents. Be well.

 

Well, aren't you just the cutest little hater.

 

Maybe you should all read this. You Israel haters wont, or you'll say "Well, that written by a Jew.", but the fact remains, every word of it is true.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/747

 

Ha ha. 15 posts. Welcome to the forum. This your first?

 

The respondent 'Prometheus' has done a good job retorting... to try to defame him with your sarcastic innuendoes i.e. <anyone with half a brain> <disingenuous crap> is not appropriate... a man of honor should make his point without any pejorative.

 

Here is something I wrote when I was in college... which put your above to sleep since it lacks substantiation.
ONCE MORE FOR THE RECORD VERY FEW ARABS WORKING THE LAND WERE <OWNERS> THE MAJORITY WERE <WORKERS>...



LAND OWNERSHIP IN ERETZ ISRAEL/PALESTINE
~by HBendor

The question of land ownership in Israel - or before 1948, Palestine Mandate - has been the subject of much discussion. What is the status of the land on which, from the end of the nineteenth century, Jewish settlements - kibbutzim, moshavim, villages, and cities - were established? For decades, Arab propaganda has been reiterating the claim that, legally and ethically, the Arabs are the true owners of the land and that the portion actually belonging to the Jews is minute.

The Arab claim rests on two premises:
(1) At the latter part of the nineteenth century, the Palestinian Arabs were living and cultivating their lands in peace and security, until the European Jewish immigrants drove them from their territory, creating a large class of landless and dispossessed Arabs;

(2) In 1948 a small Jewish minority, which owned only 5% of the territory of the country, took over the 95% that belonged to the Arabs, and, illegally and immorally, established the State on that territory. It is necessary at this point to examine the state of the land and its inhabitants during the period of Turkish rule. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries - long before the beginning of modern Jewish settlement and Jewish acquisition of land - the population of the country was minuscule and continually decreasing. In 1738, the land was described by the English archeologist Thomas Shaw as "lacking in people to till its fertile soil" (Travels and Observations Relating to Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant).

The French historian Conte Constantine Francois Volney writes:
"The peasants are incessantly making inroads on each other's lands, destroying their corn, durra, sesame and olive-trees, and carrying off their sheep, goats and camels. The Turks, who are everywhere negligent in repressing similar disorders, are attentive to them here, since their authority is very precarious. The Bedouin, whose camps occupy the level country, are continually at open hostilities with them, of which the peasants avail themselves to resist their authority or do mischief to each other, according to the blind caprice of their ignorance or the interest of the moment. Hence arises an anarchy which is still more dreadful than the despotism that prevails elsewhere, while the mutual the contending parties renders the appearance of devastation of this part of Syria more wretched than that of any other." (Travels Through Syria and Egypt in the Years 1783, 1784, and 1785)

There were, in addition to the local disputes, actual wars. In the beginning of the nineteenth century Napoleon's armies invaded the land; in 1831 it was conquered by the Egyptians, and nine years later again by the Turks. All these - in addition to the internal fighting - created in the country a climate of insecurity, which led to a sharp decline in its physical state and to the emigration of its inhabitants, who left in search of better living conditions elsewhere. Many of those who nevertheless stayed and continued to work their land were forced to relinquish ownership of it and find refuge with people of means or with the Muslim religious endowment fund ("the wakf"). A situation was created, then, in which the true owners of the lands did not reside on them, but leased them to others while they themselves spent their lives in such distant places as Damascus, Beirut, and Cairo.

H. B. Tristram, who wrote of his travels in the Holy Land in his 1865 book The Land of Israel.- A Journal of Travels in Palestine, presents a revealing description of the living conditions in the Land of Israel as he found them in the middle of the nineteenth century:

"A few years ago, the whole Ghor (Jordan Valley) was in the hands of the fellahin = (Imported Land tillers) and much of it cultivated for corn. Now the whole of it is in the hands of the Bedouin = (Marauding Nomads), who eschew all agriculture except in a few spots cultivated here and there by their slaves; and with the Bedouin come lawlessness and the uprooting of all Turkish authority. No government is now acknowledged on the east side; and unless the Porte = (Turkish Leader) acts with greater firmness and caution than is his wont... Palestine will be desolated and given up to the nomads."

Alexander Keith, recalling Volney's 1785 description (quoted above) fifty years later, commented: "In his day [Volney's] the land had not fully reached its last degree of desolation and depopulation." (The Land of Israel).

Other travelers and pilgrims recorded similar reports of the dreary state of the Land around the middle of the nineteenth century. Here are just a few examples:

Alphonse de Lamartine, in 183: "...a complete eternal silence reigns in the town, on the highways, in the country ... the tomb of a whole people" (Recollections of the East, Vol. I, p. 30.

A contemporary German encyclopedia (Brockhaus, "Allegmeine deutsche Real-Encyklopaidie", Vol. VIII, p. 206, Leipzig, 1827) calls Palestine "desolate and roamed through by Arab robber-bands."

In 1849, the American W. F. Lynch described the desertion of Palestinian villages "caused by the frequent forays of the wandering Bedouin" (Narrative of the United States Expedition to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea, p. 489).

And again H. B. Tristram, in 1865: "... both in the north and south (of the Sharon plain), land is going out of cultivation, and whole villages are rapidly disappearing from the face of the earth. Since the year 1838, no less than 20 villages have been thus erased from the map (by the Bedouin) and the stationary population extirpated" (p. 490).

Better known in this context, perhaps, are the words of the American author Mark Twain, who records personal impressions of a visit to the Holy Land in 1867. His account abounds in descriptions such as these:

"Desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds - a silent mournful expanse We reached Tabor safely ... We never saw a human being on the whole route" (p. 451, 480); "There is not a solitary village throughout its (the Jezreel Valley's) whole extent - not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles, hereabouts, and not see ten human beings" (p. 44; "Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren ... the valleys are unsightly deserts... It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land... Palestine is desolate and unlovely... Palestine is no more of this workday world. It is sacred to poetry and tradition - it is dreamland" (pp. 564, 567).

Referring to the same era, the Christian historian James Parkes writes in "Whose Land"? "Peasant and Bedouin alike have contributed to the ruin of the countryside on which both depend for a livelihood... In spite of the immense fertility of the soil, it is probable that in the first half of the nineteenth century the population sank to the lowest level it had ever known in historic times."

Conclusion: The propagandist myth of an "entire Palestinian people uprooted from its soil by the Zionists" is shattered against the reality of the nineteenth century: plunder and devastation, war and destruction, chaos, anarchy, a population dispersed and declining. All this occurred many years before the beginning of the Zionist settlement, while the Jewish population still resided in the "Holy Cities" of Jerusalem, Hebron, Tiberias, and Safed, long before these Jews together with Jewish immigrants from the lands of the Diaspora began purchasing land and tilling the soil. Moreover, at the end of the nineteenth century the Jewish pioneers began to make the desert areas of the land bloom, rendering the country highly attractive to Jews and Arabs alike. It is an undisputed fact that after World War I the pattern of Arab emigration was reversed: Until that time, the number of Arabs who left the land exceeded that of those who came to live in it. Starting in the 1920s, there were more immigrants than emigrants. In addition, where did they settle? Usually in those areas which did the Jewish settlers develop!


to be continued

 

continued from previous

What was the state of the land - its ownership and cultivation - at the end of the period of Turkish rule? Most of the territory was concentrated in the hands of a few wealthy landlords, most of whom lived far from their property. In many cases these lands were, or seemed, unfit for agriculture, and were therefore neither settled nor cultivated. Tenant farmers worked occasional plots. According to a Turkish register drawn up shortly before World War 1, there were at that time 3,130,000 Dunams in the hands of 144 landlords that is, approximately 22,000 Dunams average per family. In the Nablus and Tul-Karem districts, five families held 157,000 Dunams, of which the Husseini family owned 50,000 Dunams in various parts of the country, and the Abdel-Hadi family 60,000. The largest single holding, 230,000 Dunams in the Jezreel valley, was in the hands of the Sursuk family, which resided in Beirut and Cairo.


The Palestinian peasant, then, was indeed exploited and at times dispossessed, not by the Jewish settler, but rather by his fellow-Arabs: the local sheiks, the Bedouin village elders, the Turkish tax collector, the merchants and moneylenders (at interest rates as high as 60%), and if he was a tenant-farmer = imported Land Tiller, as was usually the case, by the absentee landlord as well.

When considering the issue of the lands which passed from Arabs to Jews, and on which the pioneering Zionist settlement was founded, six facts should be borne in mind:
(1) The land was paid for in full.
(2) Most of the land purchased involved large tracts belonging to absentee landlords.
(3) Most of the land acquired was uncultivated because it was swampy, sandy, or rocky, or for other reasons considered unsuitable for agriculture.
(4) For this reason, the initial purchases did not involve large sums of money, but with the passage of years the price of land began to rise as Arab landowners took advantage of the growing demand for rural tracts.
(5) Modern agricultural methods introduced by the Jewish pioneers, which improved the lands and increased their yield, were quickly adopted by the neighboring Arab farmers.
(6) The number of farmers forced to leave their land due to the Zionist undertaking was relatively very small.

All those who left were compensated in accordance with the law, either by monetary payment or by other agricultural land; and indeed most continued to be farmers.

Furthermore, a large number of Arabs from other parts of the country or from neighboring countries settled in the areas developed by the Jews.

Following are some revealing statistics:
(1) Out of the 429,887 Dunams acquired by PICA (Palestine Jewish Colonization Association) from private landowners between 1880 and 1947, 293,545 Dunams - close to 70% - were large tracts of uncultivated land, most of which belonged to absentee landlords.
(2) The purchases of the Palestine Land Development Corporation included an even greater percentage of large tracts - approximately 90% (455,169 Dunams out of 512,979, which were purchased of private owners).
If we add to this the 66,513 Dunams of Beersheba desert land and the swamps of the Hula Valley, we will find that the purchases of the corporation totaled close to 580,000 Dunams.
(3) A third body which purchased property in Palestine was the Jewish National Fund, which leased the lands to groups or individual settlers for periods of forty-nine or ninety-nine years, in accordance with the principle that the Land of Israel belongs to the Jewish People, and no one has the right to hold permanent ownership of Israeli soil. In the first thirty years of its existence, the JNF acquired 270,084 Dunams, of which 239,170 (close to 90%) were large tracts. This percentage dropped during subsequent years, but of the total area of 566,312 Dunams purchased by individuals, at least 50% were large tracts of land which was either totally uncultivated or only superficially cultivated.

The prices paid by Jewish individuals and organizations for property in Palestine reached, during the 1930s, legendary proportions. The Palestine Royal Commission ("the Peel Commission") of 1937 reported that in the year 1933 alone sums totaling 854,769 Pounds sterling were paid; in 1934 the total reached 1,647,836 Pounds sterling and in 1935, 1,699,488 Pounds sterling. During those three years alone, then, the total sum paid to Arab landlords reached 4,202,180 Pounds sterling, which was the equivalent of over $20 million at the time. Ten years later, in 1944, an acre (4 Dunams) of good, fertile land in the State of Iowa cost $ 100, while in that same year Jews in Palestine were paying over $ 1,000 for an acre of parched soil.

The claim that the Arabs were being driven out was raised as early as the 1930s. This claim was investigated by the British, and rejected almost completely - and this at a time when British policy in Palestine was clearly moving from a pro-Zionist to a pro-Arab position. Two official British documents from the year 1937 deal with this claim. One is the report of the Peel Commission (Chapter 9, Par. 61), which relates that during the years 1920-1939, 688 Arab tenant farmers were removed from their land as a result of purchases made by the Jews. Five hundred twenty-six of the Arab farmers remained in some agricultural occupation, and four hundred received alternative plots of land in other locations. The second document is one of a series of memoranda prepared by the mandatory government and published in London (Colonial No. 133, p. 37). It contains the findings of the 1931 investigation of Lewis French, which totally refute the claim that the Zionist undertaking in Palestine caused the creation of "an entire landless people among the Palestinian Arabs". The memorandum notes that the total number of applications of registration as landless Arabs reached 3,271. Of these, the claims of 2,607 were rejected as not belonging to this category, and only 664 heads of families were recognized as having legitimate claims.

Approximately half this number - 347 - agreed to accept the government's offer of resettlement. The rest refused, either because they had found employment elsewhere, or because they were unaccustomed to the agricultural methods, such as irrigation, employed in the new locations, or because of other reasons. In his investigation of the hill country, where the Jewish purchases were minimal, Lewis French found that out of seventy-one Arab claims of eviction, sixty-eight were rejected (The Esco Foundation for Palestine, Inc., Vol. II, p. 716).

Finally… What was the land ownership situation when the State of Israel was established in 1948? According to the official data published by the outgoing British mandatory administration before the establishment of the State (Survey of Palestine, 1946), only 8.6% of the land was in fact owned by Jews, while over 70% was state land, which had passed from Turkish to British authority and now to Israel, the legal heir of the British Mandate. The remaining lands - 33% belonged to Arab landowners, and the Arab owners who hastened to obey the call of their leaders “to clear the way for the Arab armies, which would annihilate the Jewish State”, abandoned 16.9%. These landowners did not consider the possibility that the Jewish State would remain.

The key to the entire problem lies in that large percentage of state land, most of which was in the Negev - an unsettled area of approximately 12,557,00 Dunams, or close to 50% of the entire area (26,320,000) of mandatory Palestine. These lands had never been under Arab ownership, neither during the period of British rule nor even during the preceding Turkish regime, these were simply STATE LANDS .

The contention heard time and again from Arab propagandists - that 95% of the territory of Palestine had belonged to the Arabs - is, therefore, entirely without basis in fact...!

to be continued