A question for the theists. What happens if you are aware of Christianity, understand that it offers salvation for your soul, yet reject it? What happens to your body? What happens to your soul? What if you are unaware of such things?
You have free will.. If you have been exposed to the teachings and fail to explore them even if you are full of doubt.. I think that is different than if you were never exposed at all. Don't let literalists drive you away from faith.. if its something you think you might want in your life.
Er.... that isn't the point of the thread. I want to see if the consensus is contrary to what the apologists claims.
I don't know. The entire situation seems unlikely to me. Someone who understands that Christianity offers salvation but rejects it? Wouldn't that be a literal Satanist? Or just someone with one hell of a set of cajones. Most of us who reject Christianity do so because, by our understanding of the world, Christianity offers no true salvation.
Oh I thought it was an actual question. It really not about apologists.. it about you and your choices. Why do you care what others think? I mean faith or lack of faith is so personal.
Wait and see. Upon the termination of your life, you will then know what happens. It seems that you are desiring either everyone else to declare that they know the future else you have an extreme desire yourself to know the future. "que sera sera sera" jo bhii ho so ho [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQTWCTc0aI"]Doris Day - Que sera sera - with Lyrics - YouTube[/ame] learn a lesson.
Good response JB.. at least you were holding enough integrity to view the question from seemingly differing perspectives.
You get your choice in the afterlife. An eternal existence without God. If you are unaware, the basic Catholic theology is the concept of baptism of desire. From the Catholic Catechism: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#V 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
No true salvation? I have encountered many people, including myself, that have been transformed and "saved" in this present life. As for the after life, that remains to be seen but I say salvation exists in the next world as well.
Salvation is believing on Jesus Christ, not Christianity. What do you believe concerning Jesus Christ? If you die as one who has rejected Christ, then you (your soul) goes to hell, the abode of the dead, a waiting place, to wait until the Great White Throne Judgement of Jesus Christ. You body rots in the earth. Quantrill
I contend that any support group can "save" people in this same manner. Religions are better at organizing and are fairly intimate, and thus do a better job than any institution outside of the family for providing individual support (so long as people accept their rules and norms). And obviously the majority religion of a nation will do the most of this and be most intuitive. But realistically, one can be "saved" by a group of friends and a positive attitude. While Christianity can do this, it doesn't always and it is not the only institution capable of it. I don't believe religion is all bad. It has good elements. The "join us or burn in Hell" concept is simply not one of them.
Well, most 'support groups' have a spiritual component do they not? Now, would you care to show me where the atheist doctrine is on 'positive attitude'? The importance of friends? Because what really happens is, when confronted with what the church does, you atheists say, "Well, we can do that too!" - but you don't. You only ever talk about this stuff as a rebuttal to Christianity. It is not central to your lives. Its just an after thought, and about as effective as any after thought. Atheism certainly does NOT save.
Most. But spiritual does not mean Christian. It doesn't even necessarily mean theist. The reason why most support groups have these components is because, and this seems obvious, most people are religious! I'd argue that an overly zealous support group will further alienate people who don't fit its profile. But different organizations (even churches) have varying degrees of inclusiveness and exclusiveness. Oh yeah. Right here in the atheist bible... Atheism has no doctrine. There is no organized atheism. Atheism is not a unifying idea. But the philosophies atheists have (usually humanism) have similar attitudes toward positivity and friendship as religions. Most humans value friendship and realize that positive attitudes are useful (even if hard to maintain). Religion has no monopoly on this. These things are cultural universals. What a bigoted attitude. Who says it's not central to our lives? You're just assuming that. What I'll give you is that atheists have a harder time ORGANIZING. Religion has traditionally been an organizing institution. So far nothing secular has come about that fully serves that purpose. But keep in mind, in reality such institutions are local and apply to smaller groups. It's not the Catholic Church itself so much that supports its members, but the community of the local church. Atheists lack a tradition of meeting up on some given day of the week and holidays. Atheists lack shared ritual. These things make organization tougher. But atheists do generally have support systems. Usually they are not based on religion. Neither does theism. It's organized religion and individual spirituality that have benefits. Not the belief in God. That's where you get it wrong. Atheism isn't a religion. It's a belief. That's not only pertinent to understanding what atheism is not but what religion is. The belief you think is so central to religion is really one of the least useful parts.
The same what had happened in the last 2000 years. Although nothing changes everything changes while reason and love create more and more important facts in this world and fear and hate are loosing their might. Yes and no. Salvation in the christian religion is a universal process. Everything needs salvation. We are healing this world while god is healing us. Must I say that we are often doing an ashaming bad job? Reject slavation? Yes and no again. Whatever this is really what we are calling something like "final judgement" - this process depends on what we are doing. Jesus Christ will judge us in our own way. If you remember that we judged him in a deadly way then there should be no chance for anyone - and indeed there is perhaps no chance at all. We believe that Jesus Christ is the only one who is able to help us in this process. He has the last word - comparable with the first words spoken from his father. So we can be sure the last words will be more full of love than our own words. Nothing special. If I understand it in the right way then every soul will get a new body - not made any longer of water but made of fire. I don't have any idea what this means. Perhaps we get a body full of pure energy - nevertheless it will be a full body like our body. It's maybe more difficult to do the will of god - but the real important rules are written in everyones heart. Everyone has a chance. It's for example astonishing that all cultures always found the golden rule. Perhaps we can say the people who are following (the) golden rule(s) are healers - the people who are denying golden rules are killers. The killers always have a much more easy job - the healers always have a nearly impossible job. Nevertheless we hope in life and don't trust in death. http://youtu.be/l3-la0C19Z4
I must say, you certainly seem to enjoy putting down other peoples views that do not coincide with your own, and from many of your posts you charge atheists here of that exact same crime.... I believe friends are important, and I try to maintain a positive outlook in my daily interactions and I know I am well liked and respected around the office and with my circle of friends. I have a beautiful wife who loves me and I love her back. I do not believe in God and I would say I live a moral life to the best of my ability. What is this doctrine you speak of? I do not prescribe to any book that tells me how to live my life by some "atheist code". My life experiences, my personal readings on philosophy, history, religion, my interactions with other individuals has shaped who I am today, and how I view others. Why do I need to be Christian or Muslim, or Hindu to understand these things?
The reason that these groups have a spiritual component is because, scientifically documented - it works. AA without spirituality has a lower success rate and higher recidivism rate than without. We see the same thing in recent evolutionary studies that indicate religious communities, for a pleathora of hypothesized reasons, have evolutionary advantages over those that do not have this component. The benefit is there - and its not about alienating someone, its about doing things that are proven to help people. If someone is a raging drunk, atheism at that point is an excuse. I will continue to kill myself with alcohol because you mentioned Jesus? Or Spiritualism? Religion is not the issue there, and there are indeed other ways to reach out. I will also tell you I have worked with people in crisis lines and the one story that keeps coming up, is that the only thing that works when all else has failed .... is faith. Time and again I have heard stories of people who have gone down the old checklist, and finally, in desperation they offer prayer ... and it works. And yet, you all say the exact same things .... interesting. So, when it suits you, you refer to secular humanism? When it does not, you are just beat meat eating, cave dwelling individualist? And this is problem with atheism. Its just smoke and mirrors. The cor of atheism is the self - it what we continuously come back to on ths forum when we examine ideas, and each and every atheist states that this is not what they believe and ONLY they can define it. Yet here you are telling us the opposite? You do. Because the only time it every comes up from atheists is when Christians start talking about it and then, you guys say just what you say. Me too! But its an afterthought. When you spend all your time angrily rejecting God and everything he teaches, only to realize after the fact that what God preaches is pretty damb good? The center is not love - as I state above, the center of atheism, time and again, is the self. Atheism has the same organization challenges as any other body, be it coporate or ecumenical. THe problem is that the center of atheism is the self. And people who think they are the center of what is important have a hard time organizing with a bunch of people who view THEMSELVES as the center of the universe. Again, to be clear, not all atheists fit this bill, but far too many of them do in the modern era. Far to omany atheists gain their sense of direction by telling others how stupid they are. Now how do you organize a group of people who can only tell the organizers how stupid they are? Do they? Are there atheists who will tell a guy when he steps out of line? That has certainly not been what I have seen while debating atheists. Not according to resiliency studies it isn't. Science and benefit are not just your untested opinions. And we cannot reject scientific benefits simply because they conflict with your sense of non-spirituality. After all, its wrong when Creationists reject evolution correct? The same goes for atheism. I don't care what you call it, but it is abelief system centered around God, has no proof, communicates objectives both collective and personal, and mimics religion in every way - including the belief that their way is the correct way and all others are wrong. It certainly sounds like a religion does it not?
Why is it atheists think their concerns with religion are valid? And anything that is of concern to atheism is an insult? Well, that would be my first problem with atheism - inherent double standards. The next is that, when we actually talk about our beliefs, and how they emerge, you say you have the same thing but do not require God. In practice, when you go to an atheist web site or see the propoganda, or take a gander at the threads they start, you do not see atheists talking about love. You see them ragging on God and people who believe in him (which is clearly a love centric thing to do). In fact, just as you do, atheists seem only willing to talk about these things after Christians raise them to say, "We have them to, how bad of you to say we do not." Again, I have no doubt that atheists have love - they are humans after all. What I say, indeed challenge, is that it is not a central tenet of atheism (given) and that many atheists simply do not make this value central to their lives. I see it no where in the contunual discussion of evolution and the Big Bang that flows from atheism. Never. So where is it? Its an afterthought. Its central to us and our relationship with God. It isn't in the Big Bang is it? We know this. Why do you think we have faith? Even as we understand science? Its all that stuff that is an after thought to you. That when mentioned, the best you can come up with is to say, "We have it to, and you don;t need God for it!" So where is it?
So is everyone pretty much in agreement over the less than positive result of rejecting the concept of god? More specifically, being that it seems only Christians replied, the Christian god?
I met my wife in highschool, we fell in love, and we have been together for over 8 1/2 years. Yet you say, because I am an atheist, that love is an afterthought for me? It's central in my relationship with the individuals who are close to me in my life. My family, my friends, my cat (lol). I feel love everyday, and I do not need to prove to you that faith in god is essential for love, or to be happy. I learned growing up with my parents what nurturing and support and care means. What sacrifice means for someone you love has come to me as a husband. As a human being, love is central to my life, my well being and my happiness. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to grasp that one doesn't need faith for these things.
You just also described the experience of faith. It is a sort of love. It's like trying to make a distinction between apples...is it a Granny Smith, or a Macintosh, or an Ida Red? It's an apple--it doesn't matter what kind. I believe that love and God are like that--God IS love. Perhaps you can feel love without faith, but not without God. You can eat a fruit and identify it as an apple without knowing the sort of apple that it is. It doesn't matter that you don't know that it's a Fuji, you're still eating an apple (which you know) and it's still a Fuji apple (whether you realize it or not).
