something from nothing

Your inability to answer my question is proof.

 

Your inability to answer my question is PROOF to not only myself, but to others as well.

 

Since your post is coming from a human being that has admitted the mind of man is flawed AND that the written word is merely an OPINION, your OPINION is not enough proof in my mind to accept what you say as true.

 

Oh Well... there is another old saying which goes like this: If enough people say that you are a horse, then it is time for you to put on a saddle.

 

then you should have rode out of here LONG ago!

 

Why? Show me one posting where someone has called me a horse.

 

No, my point was not that the cases were different. Careful reading of what I said would have kept you from making that error. "Different" referred to "it's easy to imagine..."

It seemed pretty apparent to me that you and the op were perfectly willing to discuss a problem with the ideation of a creator, but not of a universe that always existed. My point is that there are logical issues with both, but that the latter presents more logical issues.

 

I see. Well, then, I simply disagree. They are both exceedingly easy to imagine. But I think I've made it clear just how important "being easy to imagine" is.

I don't want to speak for the OP too much, but personally I can see exactly the same problems with both. Which is kind of the point. Whatever problem I may have with an eternal, uncreated god - they are the same as the problems you have with an eternal, uncreated universe. And whatever problem you may have with a universe coming from nothing - they are the same problems as I have with a god coming from nothing.

That's the whole point, imho - one is patently not a more difficult logical issue, because they are exactly the same in every meaningful way.

 

That is looking like a Mexican stand-off. Neither side being able to prove their claim.... thus rendering the entire discussion on that subject a moot issue.

 

thank you, that's it exactly.

further, I don't claim or assert anything regarding the origins of the universe. I'm happy to declare I have no idea. the point of the thread was to ask theists who assert something cannot come from nothing, how their god came into being - given such assertion. if they know enough to assert something like that, then one must assume they have knowledge of how and why (necessity being crucial to this postulation) their god was created.

 

Are you asserting that "their god" was created?

 

it's theists who sometimes assert that something cannot come from nothing. ergo, their god is/was created - according to their own assertion.

 

Well, I am a theist and a Christian, and I have never made such an assertion, therefore your blanket accusation toward 'theists' is unfounded.

 

are you deliberately combative?

what does "SOMETIMES", or "SOME THEISTS" mean, do you think?

 

yea, everything in this thread is based on the christian argument that nothing comes from nothing. Which is a logical fallacy, a better statement would be that nothing happens without a cause.

To a christian that cause is god, to an atheist it is random chance. Neither side can prove anything about it because their is no way yet to learn of pre existence reality. There is no way to place it in our frame of reference.

I wish the atheist would be more direct too. There is an apparent assumption that christians will blindly fall into obvious traps. Don't let it get to you.

peace

 

while you might think we're on the same page on this, we're not even in the same book. many atheists say "I don't know", many theists say "I know". since neither group actually knows, one is lying. until you guys start admitting that you don't know, we will remain distinct based on honesty alone.

 

I am not interested in so-called logical fallacies. BTW: "better" is an opinion, and you already should know that opinions are not any good on this forum unless it is the opinion of a non-theist (sarcasm intended)..

That is a classic oxymoron.

Please explain why "there is no way to place it in our frame of reference"

I think some of them are being very direct in the misrepresentations.

 

For you to declare that we (Christians) should admit that we "don't know" is a presumption on your part, which just emphasizes how much you truly don't know.

 

Quit being so intellectually dishonest. You made no mention of "SOME THEISTS". Keep the record straight. So, the question to you is: Are you deliberately being intellectually dishonest?

 

I have repeatedly said that I do not know. Lots of people on both sides are sure they "know", but mostly because they don't think too deeply.

Its much easier to just think the other side is oblivious.

Christians think they are sure that god will clue them in after they die. Its not quite the same as thinking they know something, its thinking they will know something eventually.

Other than that you are just chasing a strawman.

Most ignorant christians I have met just think that if they give all their money to some crazy preacher then god will make them rich. Pathetic.

 

And by you calling crank presumptuous, you are declaring that christians do know.

Here is the truth - you don't know. God was simply a man made creature to explain the universe and make us feel better in that there is some higher power watching over us in a chaotic universe.

By saying you know, truly shows how much you really DON'T know.

 

Something coming from nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Then the question becomes why that eternal state rather than nothing.

 

Who is claiming that something is coming from or came from nothing?

 

Which of the Atheists who think the universe is in an eternal cycle of big bangs is saying the universe is came from nothing? Clearly you wouldn't say they're claiming something came from nothing, but that they're just plain wrong. Similarly, he's not saying that you claim God came from nothing, he's saying you're just plain wrong - concerning an eternal God offering any substantial solution to the problem.

 

LOL... I am primarily agnostic, I am only atheist in the sense that I do not accept any religion. I have plenty of respect for people who do.

Yea, pre existing existing? How would you say it? Even science says there was a beginning, which begs the question what happened before there was a what?

Our frame of reference is based on simple principals of matter space and time. We have no frame of reference to describe anything without them.

They think they are wise and you are foolish. Its normal. I can see why it gets you going, but just let it go, its not worth the blood pressure.