The Bible and Protestants.

We believe that God protects the Church from error in matters of teaching of the faith and morals--we DO NOT believe the Church has never erred in other ways.

I believe that too--but it is the grace of God that saves --moving in the life of the reader, not the text.

..in the hearts of mankind...I agree.

There is nothing WE can do to be saved. We believe that by the grace of God we are called. We answer that call and live every day continually answering that call. And--if we persevere in always turning away from sin and back toward God (again--supported by His Grace and the Grace of Jesus' Sacrifice to expiate our sins), we are welcomed into his Heavenly kingdom. We believe the same as most Christians. Grace+Faith=Salvation.

 

Pray THROUGH them. Is it wrong for me to ask my earthly friends to pray for me? Why would it be wrong to ask my heavenly friends--who are more alive in Christ than I am--to pray for me?

 

Is it really that hard for you to be respectful to people with other beliefs that are firm in their stance?

 

I agree that friends can pray for you, although I don't see much use in it, even though it is biblical, but where in the Bible does it say to pray to a being that has passed on? Wouldn't that be an assumption on your part that they're in Heaven? Why would God need to hear it from a saint, and Jesus, before he blesses you?

Is Christ not sufficient enough to pray "through"?

 

Bishadi--I have decided that the evidence of Jesus is adequate--MORE than adequate. I believe the logic of the authoritative Church. I trust in that. I have faith in that. If I'm wrong, I am wrong SINCERELY. I have floundered and floundered and studied and questioned--and I SINCERELY believe that I am pleasing to the God of the universe in my attempt to come to know Him as He wants to be known. I am satisfied that I have done, and continue to do, my very best. That trust IS childlike in its simplicity. It has taken a long and complicated route to get to that simplicity, but it is really very simple.

 

That was well said

 

There's some of it in those books that are in my Bible, but not yours!

Sure--but no prayer is worthless, even if we're wrong about who's in heaven. Also--those Saints that are Canonized ARE in heaven. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven."--the words of Jesus when giving the authority to Peter and the Apostles. So--through Apostolic Succession and the Sacrament of Holy orders conferred through the laying on of hands, if the Church canonizes a saint--it's bound in heaven (but of course, God would not let the Church screw that up since it is a matter of faith that Jesus promised the Church to be protected from error). It is somewhat circular, but as I said--I believe it to be true, and the faith in is Jesus and what He said, ultimately.

I don't presume God NEEDS anything. Somehow it is pleasing to him. God doesn't NEED any bit of our worship, but it is right and just to do it.

Sure. That doesn't take anything away from the personal benefit of "hanging out with our friends" through prayer.

 

Thank you.

 

So God is bound by the church?
So do the saints hear everybodys prayers?

 

Do you know the difference between Dulia, hyperdulia and latria

 

What if you never hear of Jesus or Christianity at all in your entire life?

 

Since protestants got rid of mass and the things that come with it, they lost actual worship for just prayer.

 

Forget needs. What about wants? You know the old problem of finding a gift for "the man who has everything." Isn't God the ultimate "man who has everything?" He wants for nothing...literally.

 

Paying devil's advocate, they would tell you that they replaced mindless ritual with actual worship.

 

I guess if you want to look at it one directionally... But...does the candle feed the flame, or does the flame consume the candle? Jesus established a Church that he promised would be protected from error and charged that Church to "feed [his] sheep." The Church, acting in the world in matters of faith and morals is the instrument of God--so when the Church does something like cannonize a saint, it is the Hioly Spirit behind that movement. So does the Church do it? Yes. Does God do it? Yes. Is the Church "bound" by God? Yes. Is God bound by the Church? He said "Yes."

I don't know how it works. I just believe it does. My patron Saint--Saint Felicity--I'm SURE has been actively praying for me.

 

Love begets love. It just is.

 

That stems from an ignorant view of what the mass truly is.

 

But if God does not "want" love then there are no ramifications for not loving him. Just as a person who does not want a gift will not punish you for not giving him one, though he may be pleased when you do.

 

This is a mere claim.

 

It would be out of accord with what is right. The response to love is relationship.

 

As well as yours

 

Sorry I went to sleep this discussion has moved forward.


A Question for you (or anyone for that matter), do you believe that some one leaves the Church when they die or do they remain a part of it until the comming of Christ?

 

I do now, but what does that have to do with praying to the saints.

 

Are we talking about the body of believers as the church?
Are we talking about "soul sleep"?

 

I know what you are going to go. Your going to say praying to Saints is worship. Yet Catholics prescribe the Saints nothing but Dulia. While worship is the same as Latria which is only prescribed to The Trinity.