When has there been a serious push for gay marriage before now? When has there been an atmosphere in this country that was tolerant enough to allow homosexuals to not fear for their lives and livelihood if people knew they were gay before the last couple of decades? How big of an issue was abortion in the late 1700s? You seem to have all the stats on abortions, you tell me. How many conversations did the founders have about it? If they were having conversations about it, and thought it conflicted with something they'd written in the constitution, don't you think they would have put something in there, at least some kind of wording, that would make their thoughts on the matter known? All you have is a vague reference to a right to life, which makes no mention of extending into a woman's body. In fact, most of the laws that involve the body that they did mention have to do with preventing the government from doing one thing or another. But go ahead, I've got a nice cold Beck's Dark and I love a good laugh, so please, explain to me the founder's opposition to abortion and gay marriage, with footnotes and real factual evidence of course(just to make it interesting).
Wait a second....isn't CNN the liberal media that's in the tank for Obama? Why would you believe them? Then you might have to believe the other things they say as well. Also, what was the context of the story? Were they reporting about the issue, or were they reporting about people's reactions to what those people perceived the issue to be?
roadkoan said, "Because until now more socially conservative groups (religious and otherwise) have been allowed to force their views upon other more liberal religious groups. Up to and including with acts of violence. Now that we have (mostly) taken the option of violence off the table the religious groups who would choose to marry homosexuals are free to speak out about their decision. So now we have a discussion in the open instead of violence in the night!" Yea…blame game eh? Social conservative groups. When there has been a voting of the public over this issue…every state has voted gay marriage down. DOWN. It is the liberal left wing radical judges that over turn what the PEOPLE want. Gays are not treated poorly today. Hell they monopolize television and movies for crying out loud. Violence>???????????????? Please that is a crock of manure. I am told in the debates about this…by the Left….that the Founders were secular. They did not want a forced religion…and it wasn't. No one was forced to follow Christ…even though our laws and government reflected it. Jefferson commissioned BIBLES for crying out loud. He issues days of fasting and prayer. Where was the separation….? There was no separation. This issue will not be decided by the people of this country. The people want marriage to stand as being between one man and one woman.
Contary to what you think….I listen to just about very news program out there. They say you must keep your enemy closer…right? The thing about the liberal new stations….is not what they report….its what THEY DON'T REPORT. They have tunnel vision…and report what they want to masses to get….they hide the rest or give it little press.
Which ones are those? Do you mean all of the networks besides FAUX News? ALL of them protect corporate interests, but FAUX News most of all.
Junkieturtle said, Tolerant? What states people has voted for gay marriage…tell me. California even VOTED IT DOWN. So this issue will not be decided on by its people…but by liberal judges. The people do not want this…tolerant or not. And if you look at statistics on this….crime on homosexuals have always been low. Hell you say they just all came out of the closet….so if they were in hiding….then how would violence happen if they were not vocal about it? No, I am the one who says statistics can't always be accurate. Women do not talk about abortion….one of the most performed surgical procedure in America…and women don't talk about it. Gee I wonder why? It is not because its a medical procedure and they are always private…its because of what that medical procedure does. It is the only one on earth that kills. It is not about the conversations they had about it…its about the actions they did. The documents that they wrote. And the documents are clear as to where their heads were. Their actions did not show any separation the kind that the LEFT today says exists. Drinking eh? That explains a lot. LOL I believe the reason that abortion was not prevalent that far back….were the morals of the people, the values of the people. I believe that abortion for most people would have been inconcievable. I believe most people went to church and had a deeper commitment to God…I mean they walked the walk. I am NOT saying they were perfect…but society reflected stronger moral values…than it certainly does today. There is a reason it took so long for Roe….and for gay marriage….a good reason that has to do with the morals of a nation and what it values.
Whats the one targeted by the Left wing media? That would be FOX. Number one rated cable news show on television….What does that tell ya?
That there are a lot of gullible people in America that will listen only to the people that say things the loudest, regardless of their credibility. I'm surprised anybody can watch that crap. Every reporter on that news network is just a horrible human being and they treat every liberal guest on their show like (*)(*)(*)(*). They don't let them state their opinions and talk over them constantly. They have no semblance of ethics.
That many people prefer news shows that tell them what they want to hear. Seven separate studies have found that Fox viewers are the least informed: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/10/foxs_misinformation_effect/
A judge who correctly identifies that laws setup to discriminate against specific people and that doing so is in violation of the Constitution is hardly an activist(you used the word "liberal" here but we all know what you meant). A judges job is not to interpret law based on popular opinion(John Roberts just proved that recently), they are to interpret the law based on existing law and the Constitution. If people want to vote down gay marriage, they had better do so within the law. Trying to do it outside the law is exactly why some of those measures are struck down. I didn't say they were in hiding, I said that before recent years, the climate did not exist in this country where they could have ever hoped to gain any ground on those who would use the law to project their own bigotry. How do you know that women don't talk about it? Because they didn't make sure to drop you a line when they do? Completely subjective interpretation colored with your own bias. The 1st amendment IS the separation. Says the woman who idolizes a man who, instead of using his superpowers to clean the water and make it safe to drink, chose to turn it into wine instead. I believe you live in a fantasy world. People back then weren't much different than they are today, you just didn't hear about it because there was no internet, no portable phones with cameras and video recording software, no 24 hour news channels, and no mass media. People existed in their own closed off little worlds precisely because distances prevented them from experiencing other people's worlds. That's why all the trends you hate so much started in the 50s when TVs became widespread, and kicked into high gear in the 90s when everybody started getting the internet. It also had to do with scientific discovery and the level of human knowledge. As people have gotten smarter collectively, the push away from religion has become more pronounced. People simply don't need stories to explain the world to them any longer, because science has done that for them, without resorting to the "believe this or you'll go to hell" rhetoric. The sooner religious people understand that they've been one-upped by real tangible knowledge, the sooner you'll be able to figure out how to tweak your stories for the dawn of the information age. It's already begun, with those insisting that evolution is God's mechanic, instead of the God just created everything as we know it now line that was prevalent for quite some time.
Perhaps the reason you do not know where to begin is because you have no clue. You claim to have "called folks out" but you present no material of your own. Standing up on a soapbox and shouting "Im right .. Im right" is not an argument for much. If you think you have a valid argument against abortion or against any of the points presented.. let's hear it. Let me give you an example. I hear lifers making the dishonest, uneducated, and flat out wrong claim: (to use your words) "A zygote is a baby" all the time. Let's hear your argument for how you figure a single human cell (aka the zygote) is a living human. Now that you have been "called out" and you realize that I am right .. let's hear your "educated, honest, and valid" argument.
Junkieturtle said, Correctly….so the judges throughout our past history were all wrong? LMAO The judge in California was gay…no bias there. Every judge that sits on a bench is also bias. Its why there is such a fight for Supreme Court seats. Gay marriage is a liberal concept…always has been…it certainly is not conservative. Do you think that judges should just also say…group marriage is ok too? Cause that is coming as well. Lets just make everything legal…who cares who it affects and what it does to society. And again WE THE PEOPLE…don't matter. This country is being led by liberals that whore off each other…and look at us…we are going down…just a matter of time. Liberal morality attacking the family. The people in California did what they were asked to do. THEY WENT TO THE POLLS AND VOTED. IF IT DID NOT MATTER THAN WHY DID THEY GO? IF IT DID NOT MATTER WHY DID THE JUDGE OVERTURN THEIR WISHES? OK IF OBAMA GETS ELECTED COME NOVEMBER LETS JUST OVERTURN THE PEOPLES VOTE AND KICK HIM OUT. LETS JUST OVERTURN EVERYTHING THE PEOPLE VOTE ON…. We don't matter anymore…politicians are corrupt…and they are leading us down the path of destruction. And the sheeple just sit back and take it. And the climate today is hostile to morality thats for sure. WE are losing rights not gaining them. Our votes don't mean anything anymore. And the people representing us on both sides are corrupt. i am not going to answer such a dumb question. I have debated on hundreds of sites for ten years. I have talked to three women in sites like this that have admitted to abortion. I am a woman…I am 56 years old, I work in this field and I know that for the most part this is not something women talk about. Tell me a television show…any where the women talk about abortions they had? Do shows show women going to abort? No they don't….why? Did the women on FRIENDS get abortions? How about the shows like….HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS? How about other prime time shows. Not even in SOAPS…did women get abortions. And you have no bias…none? It does not mention separation… Tell me how Jefferson would have gotten around ordering bibles today? Hell….the Founders would have been horse whipped today…for doing the things they did. And today men like that would NEVER get elected. They showed morality…and today if you show it…your screwed. And yet this happened….they prayed together. Political unity….all praying. GOD BLESS AMERICA. GOD…….can you imagine that….on the steps of Congress. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izb459vJ-8Q I have nothing against beer or wine….you are the one that mentioned it…using it in order to what? Cope with my posts? LOL A crutch obviously right? LOL I would much rather live in my world than one you would invent based on your morals. I believe you are wrong again about people living in the past. How old are you just curious? Morality affects the laws that govern people. When abortion became legal…it was an excuse for people to say hey… now its moral. The same with sodomy…and any other law out there. And I believe the climate of this country morally will accept gay marriage…and in time group marriage…and God knows in 100 years if the Rapture does not happen….what will be allowed then. If you talk to any Vet that served back in WW1 2….the Korean War….they will tell you what coming home was like. Much different than the troops that came home from Vietnam…Gulf War and our present wars. Patriotism…….an entirely different thing today. Respect for elders…those in authority….today does not exist. Work ethic…..you can't compare it today with what it was 30-50-100 years ago. Today you put your hand out and demand stuff. The government owes us…..whether we work hard or not… And if Obama gets elected it will be by the moochers who don't work who want handouts.
Giftedone said, And you have a clue? What material have you supplied anyone? But your up on your soapbox says….your wrong your wrong….so what is the difference? I provide evidence that life starts at conception…by the top scientist and doctors in their fields…and still I am told that…it is bogus information. This is not really about evidence…not really. It is more about world views and God belief. No matter what any pro-abort would say here….it is what stems inside me, my heart and faith that color my world. And those who champion abortion and don't see it as anything wrong….are colored by their worldview…and for the most part lack of belief in God. God does make a difference…even to scientists. "If you think you have a valid argument against abortion or against any of the points presented.. let's hear it. What is it? A blob of tissue? A rock? A piece of paper? What….? It is not uneducated to say that..the life in the womb is a child. The size is the issue….it is a small small small child. Tell me this…..is a childs life worth less than an elderly persons based on age? Is a child worth less…because they are small in size than a teenager? You pro-aborts have this hangup with size. You think…your brainwash yourself into believing that because this life is so tiny….its not a child therefore……sharpen the knives….get out the suction machine. Full speed ahead….the pro-aborts are here. Curious are you also for late term abortion? Why do women need abortionists? If they are not carrying anything living…nothing human….what is the abortionists job? LMAO You people I am telling ya….cant think. Ya just can't. I just amazes me. Forget the zygote…what about the unborn in the womb at eight months. Is it human? Is it alive? When does it automatically become alive and human? And why don't you just have the guts to say….I DON'T CARE IF IT IS ALIVE AND HUMAN….THE WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL IT. CANT YOU JUST ADMIT THAT? Called out…..I think I just called you out. Now lets here the truth…if you can be honest with yourself.
Abortion was common and legal, and MOST people did NOT go to church. http://www.wallofseparation.us/founding-fathers/ While actual church attendance hovered around 10% of Americans in the 1780s, church membership thanks to colonial/state laws that mandated or favored a certain religious affiliation was much larger.
The judge from California was gay, but his decision was upheld on all appeals. I suppose to you that means all the judges were biased. If you had any idea what same-sex marriage actually does to society, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. But go ahead, explain to me what negative effects same-sex marriage will have on society. Try to be specific, and try to cite some evidence to back up your projections. Even the people have to follow the law. If you really want to get rid of same-sex marriage, you have to amend the Constitution and remove all those things about equal rights. Or you have to pass a law that somehow blocks same-sex marriage that is, I dunno, actually Constitutional. Just because people have attempted to change the law incorrectly, does not mean that the will of the people has been ignored. The people should be angry at the politician's that are putting an unconstitutional law up for them to vote on in the first place. I would feel a little betrayed, but then I suppose if you favor banning same-sex marriage, you might look the other way. Those shows avoid it because it's a highly controversial issue, and a highly emotional one. They don't want to alienate viewers with extremely divisive issues. I'm sure there are issues of embarrassment as well, of inferiority or shame. But I also imagine that each woman will have their own unique experience with it, because each woman's situation will be unique to their life. But what you're trying to do here, saying that women don't talk about it and that means it's wrong for everyone, is a fallacy. You're not showing why. You're not showing a connection, you're just assuming and coloring it with your own bias. Are you kidding? Morality is the #1 thing each election ends up being about. Candidates can't show enough morality. They have it coming out every orifice, with campaign aids trailing them with buckets and scoops throwing out even more. Actually, it tastes good. Societies evolve. Modern technology connecting the world has only made that evolution faster. Plus, there are a lot more people on the Earth today than there were 100, 200, 500 years ago. I disagree though. Sodomy shouldn't be illegal, it was absurd that it was. I do agree that this country will eventually accept same-sex marriage. Probably sooner than later actually. The more states that pass it, thus creating more evidence that it is not a chokehold on traditional marriage or a threat to it in any possible way, the faster the rest will fall in line. And so what if they legalize group marriage? Does that mean you have to have one? Does that mean everyone does? Does it mean your traditional marriage has less meaning? I would hope that everyone's marriage is at least strong enough that someone else's marriage, almost certainly someone they don't even know, is a threat to it in some psychotic way. My theory about patriotism is simple. TV, and especially the internet, have brought to light quite a few of the bad things that our government, and sometimes our fellow Americans, have done here and around the world. That doesn't mean that everything we've done is evil, but some things have certainly been less then good. It destroys the illusion that we all grew up with, that the United States was practically infallible, that it is a shining light. Certainly there are many good things about America, and I love this country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world. But America is made up of both the good and the bad, and I think exposure to that, and the extreme exposure brought about by the internet, has alienated a lot of people. What's been happening a lot, is that the country is collectively doing a lot of soul searching, trying to figure out who America even is anymore. We all have to reconcile the good and the bad. Pretending that either one does not exist only adds to the problem. People have lost their jobs because those jobs disappeared. People aren't unemployed right now because a whole bunch of people just quit working. If that were the case, there would be plenty of jobs available, and that's hardly the situation. You put our students up to students from 75 years ago, 100 years ago, and they will outperform them completely. I fully agree that American education systems need some help. A lot of help. But even so, we are collectively more intelligent than any other culture has been in the history of the world. In 10 years, we will be collectively more intelligent than we are now. I also agree about what our culture focuses on. I think a lot of what's on TV is nothing but trash. They can speculate, which is absolutely the same thing as what religions do to explain that very beginning. The whole concept of God is just a way to fill in the blanks. You're right that currently, science cannot explain where the big bang came from. Neither can religion. It's unknowable right now. Who says there was "nothing" before the Big Bang. And even if there was "nothing", where did God come from? God is just a name for the unknowable that existed before we are capable of discerning. God had to come from somewhere. If God doesn't have to come from somewhere, then why can't the energy that became the big bang have always existed? How is that any different than God "always" existing?
I have plenty of material and I have supplied this to you in the past and crushed your silly arguments. I however do not need to supply any material. It is you that is making the claim that a zygote is a human so it up to you to support that claim. Life does not "start" at conception and no self respecting biologist or scientist would ever say this. Both the sperm and egg ar alive. Animate does not come from inanimate. The religious argument does not work because "it is a religious argument" meaning it can not be proven. Your religious argument is flawed however because if you took the time to read the Bible you would find God commanding abortion. What part of "it is not a living human" do you not understand ? . Of course it is uneducated. A single human cell is not a "small small child" What is the significant difference between the single human cell at conception and any other human cell that makes the one a human and the other not a human ? Validate your claim. No .. and the reason I am not is because it is my belief (and on I can support) that a living human exists in the later stages of pregnancy. You think asking stupid questions is helping your case ? A cyst is not a living human but you need a doctor for that too ?? With questions like the last one .. who is the one that cant think ? I never claimed a zygote was not living for one .. and two ... living or dead .. what does that have to do with needing a doctor to do the procedure ? An arrow is dead .. is it not prudent to get a doctor to take it out ? You tried and failed miserably. Still waiting for you to address the central question with something of merit. Do you have any valid argument or justification for your claim that a zygote is a human ?
Not so the liberal news organizations .(Dan Rather look what he did) do not report on what is happening .only the things they want reported. They certainly have a bias against religion. Fox news does not treat liberals in a bad way at all. its the other way around. The News LIBS acted fast on this one. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/conservative-media-pounces-abc-news-352512 Who is a horrible person .and what have they done? And compare anyone to Dan Rather will ya?
Giftedone said, Yea…..what exactly? Give me one point you crushed. You know you liberals play dumb….(gee I wonder why?) LMAO You can't answer something….this is your response. I DID NOT MAKE THE CLAIM…YOU DID SO PROVE IT. Many of your blood brothers and sisters on this forum…by that I mean pro-abort friends….make claims. Why don't they have to prove it. I have provided a lengthy list of scientists…doctors….researchers from credible schools, hospitals and universities where they show scientifically that at conception life starts…a new life a new human being. I am not a scientist. I depend on those more educated than I when I research topics. What qualifications do you have…? WEll I would post the hundreds and hundreds of factual information for you as I have done in the past…but it would fly over your head. Your not worth the trouble. So please tell me the first cause…how did we get here? You are saying something can't come from nothing. Something alive can't come from something dead….right? That is evidence to believe in God….cause something had to be alive for us to be in existence. The life in the womb did not come from rocks…or pillows….or an apple. It comes about when a sperm and an egg meet. Sperm, eggs are alive they are human cells but incapable of reproduction on their own. The fact that a fertilized egg is a potential adult, does not thereby make it a potential human. It is a human being. There is nothing potential about the life in the womb. It is life….it is human. It does not wait until birth to exhibit human characteristics. Its heart starts beating around 20 days….it has fingerprints…its own organs. Its futile to talk religion with a nonbeliever…and in abortion we don't need religion to tell us it is wrong. Many atheists know abortion is immoral. What is it….why can't you define what is in the womb. Try…..what is it at 2 months……6 months…..nine? . Is an unborn at eight month a single human cell? LMAO….hilarious…LMAO WAtch ya skirm…..ridiculously funny. So please….when does this one cell become human? When does it go from a rock to a human being? Tell me the exact time…because we are dealing with killing something and I would think (LOL) you would want to be real careful…right? NOT What gets me with you pro-aborts..is the way your illogical think this one out. Follow me. Pro-aborts are all about rights…but the rights they are concerned with are their own personal rights. They believe a woman should have ownership over her body, that not one should dictate to them what they can do…and in this case kill their unborn. Abortion should be every woman's right. But here you are saying…the woman should not have the right,,,not in later terms. Why? Well for you guys…the baby is looking more like a baby…so as this happens…the woman gets less and less rights. BUT WHY DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL HER SHE CANT…TO JUDGE HER…ENSLAVE HER….because YOU think late term abortion is wrong? How logical is that? It isn't not at all. You say the baby is not human until when? This statement is so stupid I can't barely see over my laughter and tears to type. So the woman gets pregnant…not by a human sperm…LOL But somewhere (you won't be able to pin this one down) around the second trimester it automatically becomes human. LMAO Answer the question…why do women need abortionists? Say it…come on…no guts? This question kinda pins ya down and I don't blame you for not wanting to answer it. Could you do me another favor……could you please compare a cyst to living human in the womb? What do abortionists do? And to what do they do it too? Come on answer the question. I asked you ? after ? and you ran. And I doubt you will answer the ones in this post…for all the obvious reasons. CEntral question? Yea…..why are you not for late term abortion? Cant wait to hear this. "Such zygotes contain DNA derived from both the parents, and this provides all the genetic information necessary to form a new individual." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygote So this zygote thing….came from humans or nonhumans? And what will the new individual be? A farm animal? Fish? Rock? Ok here ya go…. The title of this site is….."Zygote 3D Human Anatomy - The Wonder of Human Life at Your Fingertips" http://www.zygote.com/ Wow…….wonder why it mentions human on it? Human life……..yea…. Do you know how ridiculous you look?
Don't buy it- there is a difference between a human fetus and anything that lives independently of it's mother. If our medical field was not so advanced, our infant survival rates would be much lower. Medicine contributes to the problem. Why can't a medical solution help the problem? I personally still prefer contraception because of the reduced risk to women. However, to say abortion is murder is not quite right.
Finally !! an answer to the question .. kudos to you. Now for the crushing Every human cell contains DNA derived from both parents containing all the genetic info necessary to form a new individual. Blood cells, heart cells and so on. None of these cells is a human .. The having of human DNA containing the blueprint for a human does not a human make. You have not distinguished the zygote in any way from any human cell. The zygote came from a sperm and an egg .. neither of which are humans. The rediculous one is the one who can not distinguish a noun (a human) from a descriptive adjective (human life). Every human cell is human life .. none is a human.
I have been having basically this same discussion. What is your opinion about a fetus vice an individual cell?
As the fetus grows, more and more human traits are aquired. IMO .. sentience (significant brain function such that the entity would not be classified as "clinically dead") is the minimum requirement for a living human to be said to have come into existence. The ability to feel pain, think and so forth. Scientists put this event around 20-24 weeks. This happens around
I strongly support birth control, and so do most other pro-lifers. I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't support birth control, and do not condone those opposed to it. Sex has consequences. Abortionists want hedonistic sex outside a committed relationship, and they think the fetus should be sacrificed so that they can enjoy their sexual enjoyment without risk of pregnancy or obligations. That's not true of all pro-lifers. I have continuously stated my strong support for euthenasia of the retarded, and been repeated attacked for my views by progressives - the same members who have stated pro-choice views in this forum! So presumably you support euthanasia of the retarded also? You wouldn't want theem to suffer or live an life of disablement, would you? Force their opinions on everyone else? You must mean the Progressives forcing all their mandates everywhere, not to mention fines and lawsuits when they don't think a business owner has used the "right" criteria when deciding who he wants to hire or give a salary raise to. Sorry I want to force my view that murder is wrong onto other people. In fact, isn't it the abortion seeking mother who is really the one forcing her view onto the fetus?
I am a proud left-winger who used to be pro-abortion and have donated to Planned Parenthood. But in a thread in a another forum the selfishness and lack of humanity and intelligence on the part of abortion advocates led me to reconsider my position, along with their knee-jerk support for war criminals like Obama and the Clintons. (Bush is a war criminal too) I visited the Feminists for life website and learned that early feminists were against abortion. I have changed my view and am opposed to abortion. I think contraception should be readily available and pre-natel and post-natel care should be provided. I think PP should be defunded and deeply regret donating to them.
So you are against rights for women to have a medical procedure but you want to defund clinics that provide BIRTH CONTROL.. ! "Selfishness" ? When was that made a crime? Are you totally unselfish and have never done anything for yourself ever? Forcing women to give birth as if they were nothing more than cattle shows a serious "lack of humanity"....or don't you think women are human? For an "expert" on abortion and women's issues maybe you should learn to spell natal correctly... AND women are under NO obligation to use birth control.....or were you planning on FORCING them to use it (as you defund clinics where they can get affordable BC )
