US Marines to based outside Darwin, Australia

Dear Laos,

Though I was not born at the time, I feel the need to apologize for what two liberal-Democrats did to your country in the 60's.

Please accept my sincerest apologies.

Anything else you would like?

 

do you have evidence that this is the reason?

Australian servicemen have a longer history than our alliance with the US - we have been highly regarded for well over a century

yes it was.

America does not have a strong presence in current emerging nations, and the "peace" in the region is not related to America's presence. In fact, the US's involvement in the region has often been counterproductive.

They are not, though.

I don't like my guests to bring weapons into my house and aggravate the neighbours.

do you?

 

Neither child temple prostitutes nor sati (which has been outlawed for about 150 years thanks to the British) are part of Islam.

there are severe constraints on women in Hindu cultures, and the dowry system even today results in gender specific abortions and even female infanticide. This is not part of Islam.

Buddhism? for starters, the theravada texts describe women as disgusting. FRom my reading, according to this tradition women can't ever attain enlightenment, and there are quite severe restrictions on women.

In practice, in Theravada buddhist societies, this means that women are often little more than chattels. where polygamy occurs, in some places the husband will "give" her to others in order to get an income (that is called pimping in western society). A divorced woman can be the lowest of the low in her community, unlike in Islam, and there is no support base for her. If her family refuses to support her, she may have no other option than prostitution.

this is one of the reasons why the rate of HIV is so high in Thailand, compared to that in Muslim countries.

you should be mindful that a lot of the information you see about Buddhism is a sanitised, western version ... not real buddhism.

 

do you have stats on this?

My understanding is that DV is an issue everywhere. It is not necessarily worse in Muslim countries, although again - there may be problems with the collection of data, and I don't deny that. But this will be the same in a number of other countries where this issue will also be underreported.

There is plenty of research indicating that DV rates are higher when there are high levels of stress and uncertainty, and when societies change rapidly. this tends to be high at present in the middle east, as well as a number of other regions.

I don't disagree that women's rights are an issue in Arab countries - they are. But they are not only an issue in these countries. Its true in any country that is moving from a more traditional model, to modernity. It has been true here as well. It still is to some extent.

Islam itself is no worse (and can be seen as being better in some ways) than any other religion when it comes to women's rights. But how a society practices its religion will always be influenced by local tradition - which is why there are such vast differences. What most Islamic societies do have in common is that they are not first world countries, and therefore the transition to modernity is more recent. Different states have taken change on board in different ways. There are vast differences between the position of women in KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) and Oman, although they have the same religion, and Omani women also tend to cover up.

Iraqi women NOW tend to cover up - this was less likely to be the case twenty or thirty years ago - even 10 years ago. There were also laws going back to 1957 that gave Iraqi women better rights, at least on paper, than some women in European nations at the time.

Personally, if I was a divorced woman with a child, I would prefer to live in many Muslim countries than I would in India, Thailand, or a few other places. But that still doesn't mean that I think that women are better off than they are here.

and I also think there is a lot of work to be done - which is why Muslim feminists are probably more active than feminists in the west.

 

Is Islam the perfect religion? If not what are its flaws?

 

Is Islam perfect in every way? If not, why not?

 

no.

no religion is perfect.

all of them are based on a set of myths that can be used to control the lives of others, and all of them virtually present an am right/you are wrong argument that is based on belief alone.

all religions however DO have good points - thats why they have survived as long as they have.

 

It's scary how you downplay the woman's rights situation in many Middle Eastern countries. I have no doubt that India, China, and many African and some Asian countries also have many women's rights issues. Most of my experience comes from my two deployments to Iraq and time spent in Kuwait and Morroco. For the most part, women in these countries are treated extremely poorly. The poor ones labor away in the dirt and in the kitchens while their husbands and sons look on. The rich ones are locked away, kept mostly out of the public's eye, and at the complete whim of their fathers or husbands. Do I think Islam is 100% to blame? No, I realize there are plenty of Muslims (mostly in Western countries) that treat their women as well as anyone. However, I can't pretend that Islam has no influence in women's rights in these countries.

The simplest example is my time in Northern Iraq. We were stationed primarily in an arab Sunni heavy part of the country, but would do patrols in other ethnic areas. We'd begin a mission seeing covered women working diligently with their farm animals, passive and completely deferential to nearby men. Once we hit the mountains we'd come into Kurdish(still Islamic) areas where things would improve a bit. The women would uncover their faces and walked around with other women in a less deferential way. Finally, at the midpoint of our patrol, we'd come to a Yazidi enclave where we'd see women wearing blue jeans walking around in coed groups with smiles on their faces, completely independent. The first time we came to this area it was right as a nearby high school was getting out. We were all shocked to see throngs of pretty young women dressed this way openly making eye contact with us and smiling and waving. This was 180 degree from what all of us, with dozens of deployments between us, had ever seen in Iraq. It was very refreshing and really made us feel there was hope for the reason.

Am I saying that all Muslims oppress their women? No, but I've seen enough to know that a common denominator among oppressed women in these regions is Islam.

If you don't believe my ancedotal evidence simply google image "yazidi women" and "sunni women." You can clearly see the difference in clothing and demeanor.

Also, I can assure you, that the likes of Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria etc. don't keep track of domestic violence, at least under the definition used in western countries. In a country where being raped can get a woman charged with adultery, getting slapped around by her husband doesn't make anyone flinch.

 

It's my impression that you are an Islamophile. Your defense of all things islamic is relentless. Your attacks on all things American are unremitting.

Edit: In an Islamic court of law is the testimony of a woman equal to that of a man? If not, why not?

 

I am not sure whether you have a comprehension problem, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting me.

the subject of this thread is not related to women's rights in the Arab world, however the topic has come up.

In stating that the issues are common across a number of cultures is not minimising that these things are an issue, it is placing it in context.

WRT your experience.

I have spent extended periods in morroco and I am well aware of the position of women there. I agree that there are many concerns, and there is a good chance that I know of some that you don't know, however I have spent a lot of time in Moroccan homes and do not find that the women are necessarily oppressed in the way you portray them.

And again - there are variations between those living in different regions, from different classes, from my observations I would also say between some of the berbers and the arabs.

for example, among some of the sahara berbers, marriages are arranged between the mothers, however the young woman has the final say. Among Arab arranged marriages this is not the case, to my knowledge.

like any society, there are variations within relationships, and while some women are quite subordinate, there are many who are not. If you ever visit the souk in the company of a Moroccan women you would not think these women were at all oppressed. They have a lot of confidence in dealing with sellers, and approach the trading relationship as equals.

In my experience, the women are NOT locked away.

that said, the legal status of women leaves a lot to be desired, and of course there are social attitudes that go with this.

WRT poor women - I agree that they work hard, but there is nothing special about this. to quote John Lennon "woman is the (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) of the world" - most work on this planet is done by women, and among adults, most nutritional deficiencies are among women because they eat last. across numerous cultures. Its really only in the west that this is not the case now - although some women will still sacrifice their portion to ensure that others are fed, because thats how they grew up.

there are probably more clear delineations between men's work and women's work than there are in modern societies - but then again, I have seen the same in a number of places. It is not a muslim thing.

You use the example of Iraq - but decades of insecurity and conflict in your country would also impact negatively on the position of women. When working with perpetrators of domestic violence, one of the things you learn is that it is not unusual for men to try to control those closest to themselves when they feel as if their lives are falling apart. It is not unusual also for communities to "scapegoat" those who step outside accepted norms, and the penalty becomes harsher the more brutal the situation the wider community is facing.

there has, incidentally, been an increase in domestic violence in Israel in recent years.

is that because they are Jewish?

you mention the yezidi women - are you aware that a young yezidi woman was stoned to death a few years ago by her community?

There are serious concerns in this part of the world, but if you want to get campaign for women's rights, FFS campaign BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE IMPROVED not because it happens to women because they are Muslims ...

 

shrug

my impression is that you are bitter old man who hates anything you don't understand. You express racism towards blacks and hispanics, and hate all muslims because they are muslims.

you hate your own people, and you hate those who criticise your country.

guess I'd rather be me.

re the testimony of women - that is in the sharia ...

but it makes you wonder how they go with women heads of state ... Pakistan and Bangladesh and Indonesia have all had female heads of state ... lols the Indonesian President wasn't only a woman - she was a Hindu woman!

 

Getting back to the original thread topic......the marines will be stationed outside Darwin. Darwin should be considered a hardship post. Much of Australia is wonderful. The people are nice, the cities and towns are pleasant, there are things to do aside from drinking. Darwin is not one of those nice cities. It is more like an American, Old West cattle town.

I wouldn't subject anyone to living in Darwin, not American marines and not Australian soldiers.

 

I am a bitter old man, but I am much more than that. I have a scope of understanding that you will never attain. A consciousness that allows me to walk through the distant past, and an awareness of my place in time. I am the forlorn hope of a fallen nation. Who wouldn't be embittered by the experience.

You are going to live in interesting times as the Han would say. You will know bitterness because the better world of which you dream won't come to pass. At least my world once existed. Yours will be a nightmare world.

I don't hate blacks who aren't leftists. I welcome Hispanics who have jumped into the American melting pot.

America is at war with Islam so what do you expect? Candy and flowers?

I don't think much of many Americans because I see think they are as benighted as you. They have no more perspective and consciousness than do you.

I have a deep and abiding admiration and respect for East Asians. My blood is mixed with that of the Han.

The more powerful Han China becomes the more likely that Han rules will become the international norm. For example, the Han Chinese interpretation of the Law of the Sea is likely to become standard. That is what is going to kill the international order that you want to reach fruition. I take pleasure in the sure and certain knowledge that the Han will put your vision to the sword.

Oh, btw, what happened to Pakistan's Benazir Bhutto? She was murdered wasn't she?

Indonesia's Megawati Setiawati Sukarnoputri was never elected as president. She took office when her predecessor was removed. When she ran for election she was resoundingly defeated.

Thanks for the chat.

 

I have lived in interesting times.

and when I see the young people I have contact with, which includes people from various cultures and backgrounds, i think there is a lot of hope for a better world.

and virtually every person I have ever met, regardess of race, culture, religion or ethnicity, basically wants much the same out of life when it comes down to basics.

 

The people with whom you come in contact don't run the world. They are not overcome with zealotry, malice or greed. Lack of knowledge of the existence of evil is not evidence that evil doesn't exist.

Cats can't see color. That doesn't mean color does not exist.

 

Australia and the United states have been allies for that long. Are you going to tell me the success of bot countries is a mere coincidence? If so, then its quite obvious you lack the knowledge to even have this conversation.

Kind of hypocritical to say the US is causing so much destruction around the wold while also saying we do not have a presence in emerging nations. If this were the case then what are you worried about? The truth is that America has a strong presence in one of the fastest growing regions in the world. To say that we cause more problems than we solve by being in the region might be true if you omit the history of the region prior to and during WW2. A lot of people for some reason pretend as if WW2 never occurred. Sure it happened a long time ago, but its effects are still strongly felt today. It has sculpted Asia and many other countries to what they have become today. Much of that sculpting came in the way of adopting western ideologies of free trade and democratic societies. And they thrived under the confidence that their neighbor's were being held in check by the deterence of US joint security agreements. They are just as much a necessity today, as they were back then. The populace may not agree, but that is because they are ignorant to what is happening between governments. All of which are jockeying for the upper hand in any future conflicts. China, Japan, and Korea were almost at a constant state of war with each other for a very long time up until recently. The peace we observe today is only a spec in time of the history between the 3 nations. There are certainly people living in all 3 countries that want conflict with the other. I have been to Korea and japan. Many there dont think highly of each other and there is certainly an underlying discomfort between them.

You would if your neighbors were aggravating you. However I doubt they are, because the only neighbors your concerned with live next door. You could care less about what happens across the water from you.

 

Any religion that forces a woman to wear a blanket and pretend to enjoy 'sharing' her husband with a multitude of women, must really be tied to the Age of the Dark Dismal ages of the distant past. When will this misnamed 'religion' cut the Gordian Knot of its dismal misogynist, introverted past and allow its women true freedom? Is it well past its use by date?

 

go back and look at your claim that I was responding to

so what bases do you have in China, India and Indonesia?

but they aren't. we have our ups and downs, but we generally have good diplomatic relationships.


and your personal attack is just immature.

 

and anyone who makes blanket statements like that reveals themselves to be both bigoted and ignorant.

 

glass half empty or glass half full?

your choice.

 

My condolences to the Aussies. You're now a target.

 

Good post, however you like many dont get the point. The vast majority of Muslim people in the world do not live in the middle east.

 

The glass is both half empty and half full. That is the nature of reality. Partial truths are no different than outright lies.

 

If you look at the big picture, you can see what it is the US is trying to do which is to dominate the world. This is fact and is there for all to see. The US are boxing in Russia, China and Iran and for the last 12 months have been knocking off their allies.. (Chavez has cancer, Gadaffi is dead, Assad is in trouble now...) So this move by the Imperial US government is not a big surprise. They have two warships in the Philippines along with increased military aid, troops in south korea, japan... Missle defense sites in Romania, Poland... Troops on every side of Iran... It's only a matter of time before Russia, China and Iran lash out at the US. Of course the US will blame them and not their foreign policy for it but thats the nature of a well oiled propaganda machine.

 

The "vast" majority of Muslims live nowhere. The largest population is in Southeast Asia with about 25%, followed by the Middle East with 20%. If you had read my post I mentioned Afghanistan and Pakistan as well. Also, the Middle East includes Mecca and is the birth place of Islam. There are more than 1 billion Muslims in dozens of countries on earth. This is a discussion about a particular region that has a horrible human rights record. This same region is overwhelmingly Muslim which began the discussion on the reglions role in these abuses.