War on ISIS - A coalition of the unwilling

I understand what you are saying and partially cover that in my post. This does not however detract from the prime points of my post. While Cooke may get it wrong... I didn't in relation to "dangerous ideas".

The problem is the fear based doctrine of Islam and Christianity in general. "Question this book and go to hell is quickly transformed into question the interpretation/ words of this religious leader and go to hell"

Christianity had huge success with this ideology and this success was not lost on Muhammad. Muhammad really ramped up the fear factor in the Quran. It can be found on almost every second page. "Do this and burn in the fire, Reject Allah and be tortured for eternity" on and on .. almost every second page.

This is step 1 in the creation of a genocidal extremist.

 

Sometimes it goes beyond conspiracy theories. I believe Obama is the canary in the mine shaft. I don't really believe he would do an about face on his campaign promise and his legacy just to please defense contractors. He did make it clear to General Dempsey that he would leave combat troops on the table even if publicly he has stated the opposite. Obama is starting to see a real threat to America and anyone who depends on Saudi Arabia for it's oil.

 

What crap.. Do you see any oil shortages.. any lines at the pump? KSA has met every challenge over the past 70 years to keep supply steady.. Even during the oil embargo brought on by the Yom Kippur war they continued to supply oil for our war in Vietnam.

 

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WRONG !
Do you knowingly spread these Absurdities, or do you simply Believe them ?


Names and Pictures Of Wahhabi And Deobandi Terrorists
Responsible For Global Terrorism Since 9/11
http://lubpak.com/archives/270713


The Alleged 911 Hijackers Where All Wahabbi
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/opinion/11friedman.html?_r=0


ISIS: Saudi-Qatari-Funded Wahhabi Terrorists Worldwide
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2014/4134wahhabi_terrs.html


God's Terrorists:
The Wahhabi Cult and the Hidden Roots of Modern Jihad
http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Terrorists-Wahhabi-Hidden-Modern/dp/0306815702




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There's no shortage of BS out there.. People write about Wahhabis and Saudi Arabia all the time without knowing squat about either.

 

That's politics in a nutshell, and even our war policies are subject to international politics rather than any objective sense of right vs wrong.

 

Like I said, I had seen nothing wrt them claiming to be Wahhabi. Now I have, thank you.

As to the kind of Islam they supposedly practice, their actions speak louder than their declarations and their actions demonstrate that they are true apostates.
Have you seen the Saudi's running around murdering Shia? Have you seen the Saudis running around killing Christians? have you seen Saudis selling young Shi'ite girls to their soldiers? I am well aware of that Wahhabis is the predominant school of the Kingdom, but these ISIL clowns are off the charts as extremists go.

A most informative article. Thanks for the link.

It seems that contemporary whabbism and ISIL's brand are at odds.


I was aware that the concept of takfir is nothing more than yet another convenient religious dogmatic justification for NOT following the moral laws spelled out in scriptures. In this case enabling the killing other Muslims by claiming they are apostates.

 

You really do cut thru the crap.. Well done.

Most of the so called experts on KSA have never visited or they have visited for 4-5 days.. Even people from the US State Dept.

Remember when they advised Dubya that the Saudis hated the color green? LOLOL

 

The history of Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism. Tell me if you think this author doesn't know squat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html

 

Alstaire Cooke writes a good piece but he's wrong and his knowledge of Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism is very shallow.

ISIL are not Wahhabi... Wahhabi rejected Caliphate in 1924.. and there is NO Caliphate in the Koran or the Hadiths.

 

I did not mean to paint all Wahhabi's with the same brush as ISIS, nor is it true that all those in Saudi Arabia are Wahhabi's or extremists.

I outline a bit further how the ideology of ISIS corresponds to the Ideology of Wahhabism in relation to a desire for sharia law in a post a few back to Margot.

This is only on an ideological perspective ... I call them "dangerous ideas" and outline exactly what I mean by this. Some of these are shared by Christianty.

These ideas provide justification for extremists ... no all those who call themselves Christians or Wahhabists take these ideas to the level of ISIS of course. See more in my previous post to Margot.

In terms of the religious extremist there have been a fair number that have come from Saudi Arabia and the Saudi's supported the Rebels in Syria (as did the US) who were known to be extremists.

This idea that we can support the "moderate rebels" without indirectly supporting the extremists is fantasy. One of the main rallying cry's of the entire rebel movement by en large was a return to strict Sharia law. These are the dangerous ideas that can and to often lead to extremism and we should not be supporting them.

This is not to say that we should go into countries an tell them that they can not have what kind of government they wish.... theocracy or otherwise.

What we definitely should not be doing is going into a "Secular Middle Eastern Country" aka (Syria) and try to overthrow that regime with extremists who want strict Sharia.

This is crazy.

 

Have you written any articles on this topic? Can you recommend an article that holds your views?

 

http://hollowverse.com/osama-bin-laden/

"Osama was raised a devout Muslim and, in his teenage years, joined an ultra-conservative, fundamentalist Muslim sect called Wahhabi Islam. Wahhabi Islam preaches, among other things, the concept of jihad–or holy war on unbelievers and infidels."

We know Osama bin Laden, who is from Saudi Arabia, was the founder of Al Qaeda which has now morphed into ISIS.

 

Osama's mother was Syrian and he was raised by her mostly in Syria until his school years.. She was divorced from the father about 1957.. So OBL had other influences..

His professors were followers of Hasan Banna and they had been exiled from Egypt by Nasser... seeking sanctuary in KSA where they had promised they would NOT teach sedition.. They did and so were expelled from Arabia by King Faisel..

His influences were certainly NOT Wahhabi.

As for Ibn Saud. He was raised in Kuwait by his uncle the Emir .. His uncle was profoundly anti-Wahhabi and they were very close.

The Ikwan did rebel, but it was hardly a civil war.. Most of them were settled into agriculture in the Eastern province in the early 1930s.

- - - Updated - - -

I co-wrote two books, but I am not revealing my name here on PF.

There are lots of excellent sources by Americans who spent 30-40 years in Saudi Arabia.. Some were also CIA..

 

His uncle may have been anti-Wahhabi but bin Laden was not. And it was bin Laden who formed Al Qaeda, not his uncle. So whatever his uncle was or was not is unimportant. Everything I have read clearly stated Wahhabi and the Saudi Royals as having close family ties. But since the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia, their relationship has become extremely strained.

 

Has ISIS interfered with the oil production in Saudi Arabia yet?

 

The desire for sharia law is neither universal nor does it mean "extremism".
I do not believe that the Saudi government could be in anyway called extremist despite its strict orthodoxy.

I believe that there are large numbers of what you would call moderates and as Kerry pointed out in the recent congressional hearing, there are many groups fighting in Syria that are not in anyway Islamist. Their goals are for a democratic Syria with a government that represents all of its people with varying support for sharia. OTOH, identifying them and keeping "sleeper Islamists nutbars" from slipping into the training programs and stealing weapons is a thorny problem that will no doubt be prone to many mistakes.



I certainly agree that regime change has been a complete disaster. PNAC was an attempt to establish economic colonialism in lieu of occupation and governance.

 

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First Off:
Be pleased to be informed Wahabbism is a fanatical fundamentalist Cult
that has its origins within Sunni Islam & ISIS is simply a Malignancy
A cancerous accretion that has grown upon the diseased body of Wahabbi
.................................................................................................... fanatisism

You Can't Understand ISIS
If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html

From the Article:


…”Abd al-Wahhab demanded conformity -- a conformity that was to be demonstrated in
physical and tangible ways. He argued that all Muslims must individually pledge their
allegiance to a single Muslim leader (a Caliph, if there were one). Those who would not
conform to this view should be killed, their wives and daughters violated, and their
possessions confiscated, he wrote. The list of apostates meriting death included the
Shiite, Sufis and other Muslim denominations, whom Abd al-Wahhab did not consider to
be Muslim at all….”…

-&-

"Their strategy -- like that of ISIS today -- was to bring the peoples whom they
conquered into submission. They aimed to instill fear. "


Saudi Sponsorship of Isis and the Tyranny of Wahhabism
http://azvsas.blogspot.ca/2014/07/saudi-sponsorship-of-isis-and-tyranny.html


Not quiet the Peaceniks that Margy would have us believe, are they ?
& it seems that ISIS - the fanatical cult focused & sponsored by Saudi Royalty,
& the CIA has colored over their lines and has gone Rogue & has even become
a threat to their creators – kind of like a Real Live Frankenstien created by your
leaders, set to run amok & devour your children.

Or is it that the Puppetmasters are just practicing what Niccoolo Machiavelli preached ?
" If you do not have a credible enmey, create one"

How to make any clarity of this Cess-Pool that US foreign affairs has become ?
When will the American people wake up to the forces that manipulate them ?
“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy” - Henry Kissinger

If I were an American, and had one of my enlisted kids sent home in a body bag
provided for him or her by the US military, I would be very angry

& what do you say to those people who lost loved ones in Iraq who now see American
trained & sponsorted terrorists taking control of large portions of that country

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Saudi Arabia produces extremists in large numbers and the Government supports extremists.

The rebels are by en large religious extremists. Not sure what your definition of extremism is but the majority of rebels are fighting on the basis of religious belief and not some democratic platitude.

I do not get your comment "groups that are not Islamist" ? What group are you talking about ... who are these non Islamist rebels ?

There is no "Free Syria Army" There are a multitude of small bands each with no central command. That is how a reporter that was just there described the situation on MSNBC the other night. Sometimes a group will split up because separately they can get more goodies than as a single unit.

Different patrons have different requirements. If you take from one patron the other may not give to you so if you split up you can please both.

The groups of brigands will tell the patrons what ever they want to hear to get cash and arms. These are the "moderates" Kerry is talking about.


All I have heard from the Administration so far are platitudes that have little basis in reality. There are no "moderates". These rebels are mostly religious extremists in comparison to Assad.

Perhaps in the midst of the cacophony you can find a "moderate" group or a few individuals here and there but how can you tell one from the other ?

There is a few groups who can be relied on to go after ISIL. Assad is the most obvious choice and he his foreign Minister has been wanting to help. The next is Iran. Neither of these groups were invited to the table.

This idea of combing through hundreds of rag tag rebel groups (that are not either Al Qaeda or Al Nusra .. and its not like they are gong to tell you) is like searching for a needle in a hay stack. Every one of these groups will say anything you like to get US cash and arms and then go about their own agenda.

The administrations plan to find some elusive groups of "moderate" rebels is a joke.

I am all for going after ISIL.... the more dead the better. What do you think is happening to Al Qaeda and Al Nusra in Syria in the midst of this whole fiasco ? Getting stronger perhaps > ya think !

 

No question there are Saudi extremists. As to the Saudi government supporting murdering terrorists like ISIL, perhaps you have some hard evidence to support this accusation?

Who said they were by and large religious extremists? And what intell are you looking at that states the majority of rebels are fighting based on religious belief?
As for democratic "platitudes" that is a pretty arrogant assessment coming from an American.

Just because somebody is a muslim does not mean that they don't believe in democracy. If you look at the two nations with the largest muslim populations, both are democratic.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/who-are-syrian-rebels-u-s-wants-arm-train-n207391

Where are you getting this intell that obviously contradicts the consensus of intell services from neighboring countries, NATO, and the US? An unnamed reporter on MSNBC has more credibility? And a group splitting up to get more desperately needed supplies and armaments (or "goodies" as you sneeringly call them) in no way proves or even implies that the rebels are all extremists.

I do not doubt for a second that it is a difficult assessment and that mistakes are inevitable in attempting to support a revolution while simultaneously fighting barbaric extremist asshats.

And all I've heard from you is amateur threat assessments, negative criticism and not a single suggestion for an viable alternative strategy.

Oh look an implied alternative strategy. you are kidding tho aren't you? Assad and Iran - seriously?

How exactly do you know so much about what is going on in Syria while the entire intell community seems to have missed such vital info?

I don't know. I do know that AQ and AN are fighting ISIL as well as Assad's forces.

As for jokes, your fount of contradictory intell and the certitude of your espousal sure are good ones.

 

You are confusing peaceful with impotence. They are no the same thing.
Wahhabism is the same as IS, only the rules of Arabia, the Sauds are impotent pampered fat children who bath in gold they extort from the world.

 

Lets see:
The do not allow the woman to drive, not get out of the house without a man allowing them to.
They do not allow any religion artifact other than Muslim to enter the country.
They cut off limbs of people who were convicted of crimes with swords.
They lead an Aparthhid state.
The list goes on and on...
No, nothing extreme about them, just ordinary Muslims.
Thanks for enlighting us with what an ordinary Muslim means.

 

I don't see why America needs a coalition any way. What we should do is say screw the hypocritical diplomacy and go in and crush Isis anyway and to hell with the rest of the world's ineptness.

 

That they have a different perspective on rights is not extremist. The fact that their perspectives are not compatible with western values does not make them "extremists".
The fact that they are insular and reject other religions is certainly not exclusive to their culture.

As for punishments, a beheading generally doesn't take 45 minutes for the criminal to die like recent botched executions in the US for instance. And like any legal system there are all kinds of criteria and exemptions to punishments.

We in the west obviously think it barbaric, but one result of sharia law in Saudi Arabia is that they have a low crime rate.
Although considering the treatment of rape/sexual assaults under sharia, its probably a 99% unreported crime.





I don't know what you mean by "apartheid state".

 

U.S. Suspects More Direct Threats Beyond ISIS