We broke all records of cases, deaths, and hospitalizations today

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by CenterField, Dec 3, 2020.

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  1. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Fauci "chooses" to "believe" the answers provided by science. I think that's the best approach. Not perfect, but definitely the best available. Certainly much better than Trump's, which was to choose to believe the answer that he believed benefited him politically.
     
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  2. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    Mask or not mask ... this is the question!

    In England they are going to modify the text of the Hamlet ...
    [Btw, on my Italian text of English literature Hamlet had abbreviated into "ham" ... I eat ham, come on!].

    the mask is a two way barrier which reduces the viral load which can enter [or exit] into [or from] our respiratory ways.
    It's intuitive. If you wear a mask you reduce the passage of everything [also of pollution, not only of virus. I remember that when I was in Nepal I noted policemen in Kathmandu wearing a mask because of the pollution coming from car traffic. Now ... in Kathmandu there isn't that great car traffic! If we would follow their conception of pollution we should wear an NBC suit every day [even without SARS-Cov-2 around!].
     
  3. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Again, how does a butterfly know a scientist from a non scientist? When did an illusionist or a human pseudoscientist cease to be part of nature? You have been terribly fooled. It’s sad because you are a pretty smart dude. Better leave nature and science to those who understand it.

    Sorry my man, this is my favorite quote of you from all time in relation to your sig line. I’ve literally been laughing inside since you posted it. If only you really did what you claim in your sig. If only.


    :roflol:
     
  4. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    You make the claim (i.e., that a blanket recommendation to wear masks at home at all times would stop the virus - first I believe you said in March of last year, then you changed your mind-), burden of proof is yours. Evidence must take into account all variables (likelihood that people will follow it, "Covid absolutism" considerations, etc)

    Absent of this, you are just promoting pseudoscience.

    Kindergarten Level Epistemology.
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Fauci on several occasions is documented to have chosen to deny science.
     
  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I said no such thing. I said if people did wear masks at home it would have stopped the pandemic. I clearly stated few would follow the recommendation. Now you are misquoting me. I have presented solid irrefutable evidence of my actual claim.

    You have NO evidence my recommendation on masks or the CDC recommendations on home mask usage have decreased mitigation in any way. You have NO EVIDENCE.

    Try this on for size. Since I’ve been recommending mask usage at home, mask usage in public has increased from about 65% compliance to about 85% compliance. During this time period Dr. Birx recommended home usage and the CDC began recommending home mask usage as well. Oh, health authorities in the U.K. began doing so as well.

    Now, please present your evidence that recommendations of mask usage in the home are causing less people to wear a mask in public. GO....
     
  7. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Pre-K level lesson on Evolutionary Theory:
    A butterfly has evolved, thanks to natural selection, with characteristics that fool some predators. Particularly about their size. It has not evolved with characteristics that would fool scientists.

    I'm curious: are you a creationist? I'm just asking. It's either that or you don't understand Evolution and Natural Selection. Can't think of any other explanation for your question above.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  8. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Predictable: Promoters of pseudoscience will always end up attacking scientists with no basis to support their attacks.

    Next step: you attack the scientific method itself. Stay tuned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  9. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    We have been talking about recommending the use of masks at home for several days now (months, actually). You even attacked the concept of "Covid absolutism" which explicitly refers to recommendations.

    Happy to see you changed your mind. Better late than never...

    In any case, that's the end of that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  10. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’m well versed in both theories.

    Apparently you are not because you can not answer the question.
     
  11. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Which two? Creationism and Theory of Pseudoscience?
     
  12. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Fauci is one of the most intelligent and talented scientists alive today. Unfortunately he has on numerous occasions denied science during this pandemic.

    By telling Americans they didn’t need to wear masks when doing so early in the pandemic would have done the most good. (Not at home, in public). By finally acknowledging aerosol spread, but saying 6 ft. social distancing is “good enough”. By claiming homemade cloth masks are as effective as N95 masks as late as July. By claiming in February and March we didn’t know SARS-CoV-2 could spread asymptomatically and presymptomatically.

    These are facts Golem. He knew these statements to be false and made them publicly on record. It’s well documented and you can do your own research this time. I’ve provided complete documentation of all the above on PF. Go read your sig line, then ACT on it.

    His honesty has nothing to do with his intelligence or the scientific method. I’ve never attacked Fauci. I’m on record liking the man. But he denied science. Period.
     
  13. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’m well educated on the theory of evolution and theories of creation and intelligent design.

    Remember, I’m the one who had to correct you on mutations vs. recombination events.

    I’m learning you are a pseudoscientists because NOTHING you post can be supported by ANY empirical evidence.
     
  14. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I do not change my mind. You attempted to misquote me.

    I see you still have no EVIDENCE to support a journalist’s OPINION. I’m shocked. :)
     
  15. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is better news ....

    corona virus.png
     
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  16. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    There was no scientific basis early in the pandemic to support the claim that recommending to wear masks at that time would have done the most good.

    More pseudoscience.

    That's what creationists say.

    Show that I misquoted you, or retract. Show that i even quoted you!
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  17. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's wonderful news. Not sure we know yet the full story as to why this is happening, though. But we'll definitely take it! I've read four possible causes. But not enough evidence to show that such a dramatic drop could be due to one, or all of them. 1- Change of seasons. I don't mean just warmer temperatures. But I read an interesting explanation on this thread about how higher humidity might work against transmission. We can't compare January 2021 to January 2020 in the U.S. But countries like Italy where they can do some comparison (at least in the death count) do seem to point to this possibility 2- Adherence to safety measures. I live in Florida, so I haven't seen much of this. Cases in Florida have declined, but not nearly as dramatically as the national average 3- Increased vaccination: Should be one factor, but doesn't seem to explain such rapid decline. 4- Less testing. It's still not easy to get tested. Having been tested once, I've seen the process takes too long. It takes several days to make an appointment and more days to get the results. So if takes close to a week, much of the point of testing is defeated. Maybe people are aware of this and test less. Who knows...

    Again: the news is great. Unfortunately for us here in Florida, even though it's good, it's not as great as elsewhere.

    upload_2021-2-21_16-25-22.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
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  18. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @Golem Perhaps it could be that people got quarantine fatigue and sort of slacked off. But then the spike got them to get serious about caution again. I think it’s a little too soon for the vaccinations to make this much difference yet, but they will in the near future.

    No evidence, just an opinion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  19. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Of course there was. Here is a meta analysis of studies on mask usage for novel coronavirus infection prevention.

    F5496B4E-37AB-4528-A259-07C7CD27B3D9.png

    Here is the link to the full text.
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext
    You will notice the dates on the studies all precede the time period I referenced. Three of the studies on COVID 19 precede or correlate in one instance with the time period I’m referencing (the approximate 6 weeks before April 3rd when Fauci and the CDC finally stopped denying the science).

    It should also be noted that Asian countries, privy to the same information as Fauci at the same point in time, did not deny science and implemented mask usage as quickly as possible. In fact, South Korea was already helping it’s whole population get access to quality masks weeks before Fauci finally stopped denying science.

    Fauci is an extremely intelligent and knowledgeable man. There is no way a world class American epidemiologist didn’t know about the studies listed in the meta analysis above but Asian epidemiologists did. Asians are smarter than us, but that doesn’t mean Fauci is stupid.

    Again, empirical evidence shows you to be in error.

    Is it? You realize if you are not a creationist you have made a tacit admission you are not well educated on the theory of evolution and theories of creation and intelligent design? LOL

    It’s actually clear you are not educated in any of the theories or you would know creationism addresses origins of life and the theory of natural selection does not. You are conflating two different concepts which is a common mistake of those who are not educated but instead trained into dogmatism rivaling, if not surpassing, that of many religions
    I already showed you. You stated I made the claim a blanket recommendation to wear masks at home at all times would stop the virus. I never made that claim. If I had, you would have been able to quote ME. My claim was that if people had worn masks at home the pandemic would have ended. Two very different claims. Why should I retract when you are the one putting words in my mouth? Funny stuff.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I repeat my statement. Which you just quoted, but obviously didn't read.

    Me: "There was no scientific basis early in the pandemic to support the claim that recommending to wear masks at that time would have done the most good."

    Not reading (or selectively reading) is yet another characteristic that is typical of promoters of pseudoscience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  21. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Even if I had misinterpreted you at the start, you did double down on that statement. Including when you attacked the article (and concept) on "Covid absolutism". Which is precisely about recommendations. Otherwise I would have corrected myself. But now there are only two possibilities: either you weren't paying attention, or you WERE talking about "recommendations". Or both. In either case, there have been many posts on the matter and opportunities for you to clarify and/or at least read and correct. So it's too late now. Now any other change in your narrative is yours, not mine, to make.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve provided the evidence. Other countries made the correct call. Fauci chose another path. It’s killed a lot of people.
     
  23. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry you are unable to keep up. In the future I will attempt to simplify things for you as you seem unable to grasp even the simplest of concepts. I accept your concession as you still can not provide any empirical evidence recommending masks at home would have any harmful effect. I’ve given evidence if anything it had a positive effect. (Since you seem to have a hard time with these concepts I’m not making the claim my recommendation or that if the CDC has a causal effect). LOL
     
  24. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Even if that were so, that's hindsight. Not science. Not considering the cultural and political aspects when comparing recommendations is cherry-picking. Also not science.

    It's pure pseudoscience.

    After many posts in which you criticized an article dealing with recommendations, you just now stated that you weren't talking about recommendations.

    So it's not just a matter of keeping up. This whole discussion appears to have originated in the simple fact that you didn't know what it was about. Because you either didn't read, or didn't paid attention to what you read.

    BTW, now that it should be clear to you that everything I have said refers to issuing recommendations, and not about how effective the masks themselves are; why do you still keep acting as if I were referring to the latter?

    Please respond.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  25. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. Now you think tenets of epidemiology vary by culture. Seriously?
    The science was clear in February Americans should be masking. Perhaps you would like to present the evidence to support masking on April 3 that didn’t exist previously? Can you do that? If not, why the recommendation on April 3 after people were dying in droves?
    If Covid 19 had been Covid 15 or Covid 11 ample evidence would have existed to justify recommending mask usage when infection rates were low. The job of public health epidemiologist is to make recommendations that save lives based on empirical evidence. If empirical evidence exists that shows a mitigation effective in saving lives it’s the epidemiologist’s job to recommend that mitigation.

    If no evidence existed showing efficacy of masks in February, Fauci would have been correct in recommending against or not recommending for masks. But there was overwhelming evidence Americans should be masking in March when Fauci famously lied and told Americans it wasn’t necessary and wasn’t very effective. Numerous studies existing at the time showed masks prevent around 80% of possible transmission events.

    In March the science was clear Americans should be masking to prevent transmission. Fauci recommended against doing so and denied science again by claiming masks weren’t that effective anyway when he KNEW they were.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021

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