We broke all records of cases, deaths, and hospitalizations today

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by CenterField, Dec 3, 2020.

PF does not allow misinformation. However, please note that posts could occasionally contain content in violation of our policies prior to our staff intervening. We urge you to seek reliable alternate sources to verify information you read in this forum.

  1. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    9,858
    Likes Received:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    OK folks, this is out of control and very serious. Today, according to Worldometers (their numbers are always a bit bigger than Johns Hopkins') we had 203,737 new Covid-19 cases, 2,833 deaths, and from other sources, it is said that we got 105,000 people in hospitals with Covid-19. All three numbers are the highest ever since the pandemic started.

    We are in huge trouble. This is all BEFORE the inevitable surge we'll have in another week when a fraction of the 50 million people who unreasonably traveled for Thanksgiving show up with the infection. This is also before the temperature gets really cold (it's starting to happen), and before inevitably MORE unreasonable people travel for Christmas.

    I won't be surprised if we hit 300,000 new cases and 4,500 new deaths per day, very soon.

    The vaccines are coming but will take a while. I've been against lockdowns for a long time, but it does look like we need to do something to flatten this curve or else our hospital systems will get overwhelmed, and then the s.... will hit the fan, as we'll start seeing collateral damage (people dying of other treatable conditions because the hospitals are too full with Covid-19 cases).

    So, someone suffers a car accident and gets to an ER with thoracic trauma, needs surgery and a ventilator, but oops, it's all taken by Covid-19 patients. A child with a serious asthma attack needs immediate help but the ER is overwhelmed with dozens of Covid-19 patients and oxygen tanks are all taken, not to forget that doctors and nurses are too busy to get to the child.

    All of you who think "this doesn't concern me; I'm young and healthy; even if I catch it, it won't be a big deal" - you don't want the hospital system to break down, in case you or a loved one needs it.

    We may need to act and implement some control measures. Sure, many of these are bad for the economy... but a deadly out-of-control virus is ALSO bad for the economy.

    Up to today I've been consistently saying that I'm not for lockdowns... but when I see the exponential progression, I kind of change my mind, especially because the deaths we'll be facing in the next two to three months could be avoided, if we flattened the curb a little while the vaccines get distributed and given to people.

    Or not (meaning, no lockdowns). I'm not fully certain of what needs to be done. I know that the economy is at a breaking point. It's pretty disheartening. We are between a rock and a hard place.

    ------------

    I'm ambivalent about it. Opinions?
     
  2. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,980
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am beyond exasperated with the insanity. I feel so badly for all of you who are suffering the fallout of this trump insanity. Thank you for your service. This is no different than serving as a foot soldier in a hot war zone.

    This can be kept to a low roar if people would follow the guidelines. But even now there is a large percentage of the population that doesn't believe it. And they are beyond hope. No matter the evidence, they rationalize some kind of crackpot nonsense. I don't think they can lock down some States. The nuts will start attacking with guns. I think some medical systems are going to collapse and there is nothing we can do now. Areas with a lot of trump supporters are likely beyond help. They won't believe it until bodies are piling up in the streets. And then they will still find a way to blame liberals rather than face facts.

    I can't even tolerate posting on this board anymore. It is just a showcase for the nonsense that is now killing hundreds of thousands of people. This is trumps great legacy - a pile of dead bodies that would literally be 100 miles high. Trump is the greatest mass murderer in US history.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
    Arkanis, MJ Davies and CenterField like this.
  3. Sappho

    Sappho Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2020
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    108
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I don't what to say... the media has been warning of this from the get go, but Americans have focused more on their personal freedoms than their healthcare system...
    I did hear that some hospitals are so overrun that doctors are having to decide who, from the pool of patients is best able to survive on a ventilator with those failing the grade getting palliative care... and let's be frank, palliative care is nothing more than euthanasia in this case... death by morphine overdose.

    And the logistics of it all is extraordinary... Cold storage trucks for the many hundreds of corpses.. mobile hospitals...
    And then, I've heard that they are running low on life saving covid medicines...
    And then there are the unintentional deaths resulting in exhausted medical staff making mistakes...

    It is all quite heart breaking to witness as an outsider looking in.:sad::sad::sad:
     
    cd8ed, Pants, Curious Always and 3 others like this.
  4. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    10,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just random thoughts here.

    —We are unlikely to see a national lockdown till January. I don’t see Trump changing his stance on state’s rights at this point. I don’t think Biden has any such compunction about violating state’s rights. We shall see. Aren’t some states locking down now and haven’t some already done so?

    —States that don’t implement mitigation on their own aren’t likely to enforce a federal mandate anyway. The Feds can withhold funding or something for leverage but I don’t see that as constructive. That wasn’t palatable to a certain demographic on immigration so I’m sure that demographic would oppose withholding funds in this instance as well. :)

    —Post holiday surges. You could be right. We may see that. Locally I don’t know if we will. People who I know that did Thanksgiving were already socializing with family anyway. I know travel was way down (almost zero) locally. I worked all day Thanksgiving next to one of the major highways in my area and there was almost no traffic. Probably 5 vehicles dawn to dusk. On a typical Thanksgiving it’s very busy, especially morning and late evening. All anecdotal of course...oh, my uncle in Colorado told me when I talked to him on the phone Thanksgiving morning small turkeys were a rare commodity. That’s a good sign!

    Oh, @CenterField. My in-laws did come out Wednesday before thanksgiving. Like I said, we are all self quarantined at this point (and have been) and they figured out how to make it here without using public restrooms. But I guess I’m a hypocrite anyway. LOL :)


    —People in the US aren’t equipped physically or mentally for a lockdown designed to really affect infection rates. People got caught short on TP twice in less than a year! Sadly, I don’t think many people learned any lessons from the first time around.

    —I still have a hard time reconciling the fact many states with the most draconian mitigations already mandated are seeing infection rates increase while some states with little mitigation have rapidly falling rates. I really have a problem forcing people to do/not do things we have evidence aren’t working that great at state levels.

    —As someone not directly affected too much short term by lockdowns (so maybe my opinion isn’t worth much) I think states should do as they see fit. If residents of states don’t like how their state handled things they should move to a state they admire. That’s kind of how this country was intended to function.

    —My apologies to you healthcare people. I know you see this from a unique perspective and you pay a price for freedoms we have here. Of course that’s not new, most of your business is always the result of individuals abusing their freedoms. But you are human and have limits on what you can do and endure. Trust me, I do understand that.
     
  5. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And where were the majority of deaths so far? Democratic states? Didn't see that in the numbers presented. No need to explain why.
     
    pol meister and ToddWB like this.
  6. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    9,858
    Likes Received:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The news on TV did show crowded airports and they said that 50 million Americans traveled for Thanksgiving. If travel is involved, it most certainly escaped the usual household contacts, and introduced new subjects to these contacts. It is inevitable that the surge will increase. Just give it another week, and you'll see. Good for your county that you all didn't travel that much, but it wasn't the national trend.

    I'm not sure what states you are seeing with "rapidly falling rates." This thing is now surging everywhere. Hot spots are so numerous that maps tracking them are now a sea of red.

    Parts of California are restarting lockdown. My state, business as usual. And cases here are surging and surging.

    I know that lockdowns are not politically palatable and are economically problematic. That's why I'm ambivalent about them. And I know that people won't obey.

    Just today I was seeing an article about Steven LaTulippe, a MORON from Oregon who calls himself a doctor (apparently this imbecile did complete medical school and does possess a license to practice medicine - I wonder what class rank this IDIOT had, and what kind of medical school he attended) who is calling this virus "a common cold" and is advocating for people not to wear masks because supposedly they are intended to keep people down and dominate them somehow. Great. He is going in rallies, giving speeches telling people to burn the freedom-crushing masks.

    Apparently the State Medical Board in Oregon is looking at reports that this doctor is violating ethical principles in his public advocacy for actions that jeopardize public health. They are looking into disciplining him. They must.
     
  7. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2016
    Messages:
    16,925
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    It's pretty disheartening. +1

    I'm so frustrated. The "masks are useless," crowd is .... I don't even know the word. Stupid?

    We, the sane, are doing the things.

    The stuff that really pisses us off, here, is when the governor of California tells his citizens, no travelling, no dining out, etc. - and then sends his state legislatures on a trip to Hawaii, and then goes out to eat in a small, contained room, laughing and shouting with a group of friends.

    "Do as I say, not as I do," is really a pathetic excuse for leadership. He should be impeached for that.


    CenterField - take care. The entire world's medical staff is in our thoughts, here, every day. You are doing thankless tasks. I'm certain you are saving lives of people who will go down saying it's a hoax.

    There's no convincing the anti-mask crowd. They've dug in their heels and will not stray from their pseudo-scientific beliefs.
     
    CenterField likes this.
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    10,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, airports probably a bit different. Maybe there was no traffic in my area because people west of me drove to Denver to board and people east of me drove to Omaha to board! :)
    Somebody the other day had a thread on the UK seeing 30% reductions in infections due to lockdowns. So I ran the numbers for my state and South Dakota using 7 day moving average data and both had similar decreased as the UK over the approximate same time period. By Worldometer data, most states I follow have had decreasing daily infections for 10 days or so at least. California is one exception. I don’t try and follow all states.
    Was business as usual here. Had a big spike that is now presently on the downhill slide. We shall see how holidays affect that. On the economy side of the equation Nebraska has the lowest unemployment in the nation. I wouldn’t say it’s all because of our relatively liberal “lockdown” policy but it’s a factor. We historically are always in the bottom 5 or so for unemployment nationally. I guess when it’s all over we’ll see if that was the correct course overall or not.
    Agree. Like I said, as a society we just aren’t capable of a real lockdown.
    If he’s violating their rules or guidelines they can revoke his license to practice, right?
     
  9. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The airlines promised us that they socially distance, required masks, etc. Are you suggesting that those safeguards didn't work? More, recently the WHO said much the same thing that they are unproductive practices. You're calling a credentialed doctor an idiot for parroting what the WHO said two days ago. That doesn't bode well for your commentary. Help us understand something. In say a state like FL where deaths are going down, hospitalizations are going down, and they aren't locked down how a state like CA, or IL, or NY, or other blue states are seeing such dramatic increases in their infection results, hospitalization numbers, and atrociously spiking death rates?
     
  10. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2016
    Messages:
    16,925
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Who told you that Florida cases are going down?

    [​IMG]


     
  11. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Tell this to the WHO. They don't seem to agree with you. Are they "Stupid"?
    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/who-should-wear-a-face-mask-30-march-who-briefing/

    • The World Health Organization held a media briefing to update the public on the COVID-19 outbreak. Streamed live Monday, 30 March.
    • WHO officials do not recommend mask wearing for healthy members of the general population.
    • Masks should be worn by those with the disease or those in close contact with those infected.
    • As lockdowns become more prevalent, family spread will become more common.
    Fauci said not to wear them as late as May of this year.

    The disturbing aspect of all of this banter is that folks are actually still becoming infected even while practicing social distancing and mask wearing. Show the data that demonstrates that use of these practices has somewhere been shown to be effective.
     
    pol meister likes this.
  12. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Deaths. Hospitalizations. Where are the infections being noted? 3 Democratic counties with the highest population density. Facts. Try harder.

    current florida covid deaths
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
    pol meister likes this.
  13. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
  14. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
  15. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    31,389
    Likes Received:
    28,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There are a lot of examples. But where democrats run things, spikes and deaths are surging. Even after locking folks in their homes. Staggering dissonance from what we hear in the press.
     
  16. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2016
    Messages:
    16,925
    Likes Received:
    13,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    You didn't read the full commentary, which basically says that since people are too dumb to use the masks properly, they shouldn't even bother.

    That's not the same as saying masks don't work at all.



    Re: Florida - we are at record levels of hospitalizations due to COVID, today. The numbers are not going down, here.
     
    truth and justice likes this.
  17. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    9,858
    Likes Received:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I just looked, and with the latest surge, 47 states are at the highest risk level (red) and only three are not, Maine and Vermont which are at orange level, and Hawaii yellow.

    Do observe that testing went down during the holidays so there is an artificial dip; now it's picking up again.

    --------

    I don't think the Oregon Medical Board will immediately revoke his license to practice. Probably they will issue a "letter of concern" or a public or private "reprimand" AND if he persists, then his license could be suspended. Rarely the Board will take immediate drastic action. It's akin to a "cease and desist or else" and if he does, then he'll remain in good standing. If he doesn't, then, beware.

    In this case, though, it might go beyond that because apparently he is encouraging his staff to go maskless while they are seeing patients (how boneheaded is that???). If the Board can find cases of Covid-19 among his staff or his patients with a reasonable likelihood that the persons got infected while at his clinic, then it constitutes another whole dimension of harm. I'd expect his license to be at least suspended in this circumstance, with mandatory retraining on infectious diseases and measures to limit the spread of infectious agents, because that is malpractice.

    As a doctor I don't wish this virus on ANYBODY, even a moron like Dr. LaTulippe, so I wouldn't root for him to get the virus (as many might be tempted to think). But I won't say that I wouldn't feel content if a patient or staff of his who may have caught Covid-19 thanks to the lousy infections control practices in his clinic, sues the s.... out of him and is awarded a huge settlement. His malpractice carrier might refuse to cover him, claiming that since he willingly and knowingly did not follow guidelines due to his confessed and public political convictions, he incurred in contractual exceptions and forfeited his coverage. That would result in his, say, losing his house and other assets, to pay off the settlement. That should teach him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  18. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2011
    Messages:
    26,164
    Likes Received:
    8,974
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Exactly!
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  19. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    10,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think risk levels and such are too arbitrary. I prefer to go off actual confirmed cases. Of course we know that isn’t perfect either but it’s what we use for everything else. When cases increase we say it’s bad. When they go down, we should be glad. In the states I’m referencing they are going down, not up. Same as in the UK.
    The trends I’m referencing started 10 days to 2 weeks before Thanksgiving.
    --------
    Thanks for the detailed response. I’m completely ignorant of how that all works. Now I’m less ignorant.
    Yeh it looks like they could have a case. How would picking a jury go? What a disaster. :)
     
  20. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    21,120
    Likes Received:
    20,249
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I know a couple of people that tested positive and they were NOT given ANY kind of medications. They were simply told to go home and self-quarantine for two weeks. They might be willing to treat people with worse symptoms but the three people I know were discharged with no medications or follow-up.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
  21. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    9,858
    Likes Received:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That is not good. There are things that can be done to improve the person's odds. Obviously the doctors who discharged the person with no other recommendation are not up to date with the latest in treatment of mild Covid-19.
     
    MJ Davies likes this.
  22. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    9,858
    Likes Received:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Small consolation if a few states are doing less poorly, when nationwide the cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are breaking all the records established in the spring.
     
  23. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    21,120
    Likes Received:
    20,249
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They did. I know all three of them personally. Besides that, the POTUS has everybody thinking they will get the best of care and treatments. I understand why he is more "important" but it leaves much to be desired when people are sent home with a "good luck" send-off.
     
  24. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,298
    Likes Received:
    10,471
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure. My only point was to demonstrate cases are falling in many places without lockdowns and actually increasing in some places with more lockdowns in place. I think it’s unwise to ignore something like that if we are going to make good policy.
     
  25. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    9,858
    Likes Received:
    8,404
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    But I know that you do realize that this is merely a correlation. Literally hundreds of intervening factors could be clouding the picture.
     

Share This Page