We broke all records of cases, deaths, and hospitalizations today

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by CenterField, Dec 3, 2020.

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  1. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes yes yes!! A thousand times YES!

    Don't tell me I have been discussing epidemiology with you all this time, and you didn't even know what epidemiology is.

    Talk about an aha! moment. NOW I fully understand your confusion.
     
  2. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yes that does clear things up. You think the physical properties of masks change depending on the culture of the geographical location they happen to be in. I remember you claiming something like that months ago when we discussed masks in the home. You believed their protective qualities changed depending on whether they were located in a hospital, a home, or a public space. Thanks for reminding me of that. Another good chuckle.
     
  3. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    What is funny is that you would even mention that as a possibility. But... I wouldn't expect anything other than a strawman from you, now that it's clear you don't understand what epidemiology is.

    Do be sure to come back to us when you find out. Why should I waste my time responding to any more of your strawman arguments? I'll pass until you show us that you have learned what epidemiologists do. Because your previous post demonstrated that you don't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2021
  4. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to have to un-watch this thread.
    It's turned into a mean spirited argument between a couple of my favourite posters and not really got anything to do with the topic any more.
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve explained in great detail what public health epidemiologists are supposed to do. Lying isn’t part of it. Neither is failing to recommend lifesaving mitigations because this isn’t Asia. LOL.
     
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  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    The post you responded to was from early this week. I assume you took most of the week to research. And that you now understand that the cultural element is very relevant for epidemiologists to understand how a disease spreads and to develop realistic plans and recommendations on how to deal with epidemics. That's a good thing. And there is no need for you to publicly admit that this was so. But I do hope you have learned that it's better to research before "LOL-ing" serious points. A mistake you wouldn't have made if you had applied the recommendation in my sig.
     
  7. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I was busy and missed some alerts. I’m quite confident everyone here knows I’m well versed in epidemiology. I’m on record in many threads discussing cultural aspects of mitigation acceptance and even cultural effects on herd immunity thresholds.

    Don’t mistake my being busy 18-20 hours a day mitigating infectious diseases in about 15 separate species (who exhibit much more heterogeneity of behavior than human cultures) and missing an alert for ignorance on my part. :)

    The fact you are incorrect on every technical point of epidemiology seems more relevant to our discussion than you assuming things about me without any evidence. But then facts and empirical evidence don’t seem to be as important to you so I understand the need for you to post the above criticism based again on....nothing substantive from you.

    Cheers.
     
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  8. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well... I don't know what to tell you. In this thread you are known for having written this...

    ... as a response to my pointing out that recommendations offered by epidemiologists must include cultural and political aspects. And that omitting such considerations when they do their job (which includes recommending policy) would be akin to pseudoscience.

    But that's ok. So long as we are on the same page now... Saul Goodman. :wink:
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021
  9. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    The tenets of epidemiology do not vary by culture.

    As usual you have a fundamental misunderstanding of science.

    Here is a pretty good description of epidemiology from the CDC.

    So clearly we don’t have separate tenets of epidemiology in the US compared to Asia. Both cultures/geographical locations collect data on distribution of disease, the causes of disease, and what cultural metrics affect the data within the studied population.

    You are mistaking data and recommendations for core tenets of epidemiology. The tenets are the same in all cultures. What changes is the data based on variations in populations the epidemiologist studies.

    The tenets of epidemiology do not change by culture. Just as the tenets of say climatology don’t change or vary between California and Alaska just because it may be hotter in Death Valley than on an Aleutian Island.
     
  10. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh.... that is real desperation. This is what you responded to.

    I said: "Not considering the cultural and political aspects when comparing recommendations is cherry-picking. Also not science." (bold was not altered from the original)

    That's what you referred to as "tenets of epidemiology". I think you would do better just admitting your mistake, because with your excuses you are only digging yourself deeper deeper into the hole. But that's up to you.
     
  11. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Who hasn’t considered cultural and political differences? Has anyone considered them and concluded there are cultural and political realities in the US that justify exclusion of masks as a mitigation in the US? Can you cite any study or any “expert” who has concluded this? Or is this just more of your unsubstantiated opinion? Epidemiology is to be based on data and evidence, not Golem’s unsubstantiated opinions. I’ve provided overwhelming evidence mask usage would have been correct behavior in March in the US. You disagree but can’t provide ANY evidence to support your position. And then you say following empirical evidence in making recommendations isn’t science. NOTHING you have posted on the subject of epidemiology is based on ANY evidence.

    I guess you can attempt to convince us (using empirical evidence of course) the US should not utilize masks as a mitigation because of cultural differences. I think that would be entertaining. Go...

    Or you can supply evidence the core tenets of epidemiology are dependent on geographical location. Maybe provide a description of the tenets of epidemiology from the Korea Disease Control and Prevention Agency that is substantively different than the one from our CDC.

    Maybe because American culture is so different than Asian culture we should just not recommend any mitigations every American won’t follow.

    Or in the context of Fauci recommending AGAINST masks through March but FOR masks the third of April, maybe you could explain how American “culture” changed between the second and third of April to justify changing the recommendation? Just remember Fauci was upset too many people WERE wearing or WOULD wear masks and that’s why he discouraged it. So you can’t claim Americans were culturally opposed/unaccepting in March but not in April.

    I’m fascinated by the excuses people who have spent years complaining about Trump lying come up with to defend people like Fauci. You have taken defense of dishonesty and denial of science to the next level.
     
  12. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    There was a mask shortage. We didn't even have enough for front-line workers.

    You claim to be an expert? LOL!
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  13. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    557 knows that. What he is against (me too) is Fauci lying about it. Fauci shouldn't have said "don't wear a mask, it won't protect you." He should have said "Let's please allow the frontline healthcare workers to have the masks." It wouldn't work, people would still flock to buy them; and the suppliers, mainly in China, would still refuse to honor contracts (that's pretty much how the scarcity originated - in search of cheap labor, we gave away our means of production of this essential national security item, to unfriendly nations - China at the beginning of the pandemic decided to keep the masks for themselves - that's precisely why they delayed by 3 weeks the notification to the WHO - they were busy cancelling export contracts and gobbling up all the masks). But at least people would continue to trust his advice. Trust in a pandemic is a very important commodity, and by lying, Fauci squandered it. The response to the shortage should have been more domestic production via Defense Production Act, not lying about mask efficacy. And yep, 557 is indeed an expert. He has proven it here, multiple times.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  14. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    If he told the truth, it would have killed even more people by shorting those we need the most. There are times when lies are necessary. This is a simple truth of government. Eventually the truth needs to come out but not always in times of crisis.
     
  15. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    The difference between trump's lies and Fauci's, is that Fauci lied to save lives. Trump lied for political gain.
     
  16. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wrong. Like I said, human nature is such that even if he had said the truth, people would still try to buy any available masks.
    Toilet Paper was scarce... people flocked to it. Do you think that if an official went on TV and said "you don't really need toilet paper, it is not efficacious for cleaning your behind after you poop" people would say "Oh, OK" and not flock to buy toilet paper? LOL.

    Truth is always better. The idea that governments know better than the naive citizens therefore should lie to them, is actually a very totalitarian idea. That works in North Korea. Not here.
     
  17. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That, I agree with. But still, Fauci shouldn't have lied.
    So, after lying for months that masks are not protective, he turned to saying the truth, that yes they are, and people should wear them. Too late. The lie compromised people's trust in his advice. Why should they believe him now, if he had lied to them before? That's what's wrong with the lies. He ended up issuing muddy, contradictory guidance, and people lost faith.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
  18. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Centerfield we agree on Fauci. We both admire his intelligence and achievements and respect and support his good/correct advice. But we both see how harmful lying was. I don’t know if you ever watched the full interview of Fauci on 60 minutes in early March. The short “60 Minutes Overtime” segment where he says Americans had no reason to be walking around with masks (paraphrasing) and downplayed their efficacy has been posted here many times. I’m not aware of the full interview that aired on the full segment edition of 60 Minutes being available outside of CBS which is not available without subscription. But I have watched it numerous times and based posts on Fauci’s comments in that interview segment. Below is one of them that pretty much sums up your insightful (Centerfield) analyses of the consequences of lack of candor in Fauci’s own words. It’s more evidence he is astute, and the recommendations against masks were not an error or based on lack of knowledge.

     
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  19. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yep. Like I said in post #342.
    The bottom line is, Fauci lied, people died. Sure, Trump lied, people died. But two wrongs don't make a right.
    The other poster said that Fauci lied trying to saving lives unlike Trump who lied to score selfish political points. Possibly, for Fauci (for Trump, I'm sure that that's accurate). But predictably the lie backfired for Fauci too (and for the American people), regardless of his good intentions. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
     
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  20. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Fauci lied to save lives? Spoken like a true believer in the Church Of The Poisoned Mind.

    Did Fauci also divert funds for GOF experiments at Wuhan and UNC Chapel Hill to "save lives"? :roflol:
     
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  21. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I'm not trying to speak for @HereWeGoAgain but I've heard this statement from others in my inner circle. They contend that he lied because he wanted to avoid a public rush on masks so they would be available for front line health care workers. While I understand why he did it, it doesn't change the fact that he did it and causes me pause each time I hear his latest "advice". I always have the nagging question of "Is he telling the truth or not?"
     
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  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    You and untold millions of others, I believe. Most of the people I know who resist mask usage predicate their stance in large part on the inconsistency of messaging. Most of them don’t accept lying “for a good cause”. Even the ones conditioned to accept political fabrications and farces are turned off to the idea “science” lies to them as well.

    While the initial (and in some cases continued) dishonesty on masks negatively affected in the past and affects compliance today, the even bigger detriment is loss of trust on all other issues including but not limited to vaccines, testing, variants, and herd immunity.

    Somehow this country needs to disconnect politics from science so that science can be trusted more implicitly (not blindly of course). What we have going on now (at least up to this point in the pandemic) with politicization of all the science just makes it extremely difficult for scientists/doctors like our friend @CenterField to do his job of protecting and healing. We’ve ended up with two political factions both denying true science and calling honest, true science crackpottery, pseudoscience, and cultism. This is not good. Seeing BOTH political parties deny science on a regular basis is bad, bad juju.
     
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  23. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I agree the problem is the mixing of science and politics. There's a reason that Fauci is the highest paid employee of the Federal Government and, with that, we should be able to trust him to be honest and lead us through that. He broke the public's trust (for whatever reasons he felt it was necessary) and it's difficult to build it again especially in the day-to-day climate of constant change surrounding CDC guidelines. Our local Department of Health representative outright told us "We simply don't know at this time" to almost all questions posed by concerned residents. I understand that it's constantly evolving as they learn more but it has left people scared and unsure.

    I was thinking about this relative to when then-President Trump made the comments about light and disinfectant and Dr. Birx squirmed in her seat. I also recall times when Fauci covered his face (seemingly surprised about something Trump was saying about the pandemic). Maybe there should be some kind of distance between the POTUS and lead epidemiologist. Fauci, the highest paid Federal employee, didn't last this long through several Administrations without knowing how to play politics. The problem is exactly what we've witnessed - he's willing to lie to the American public just at the time when we need honesty and direction.

    In short, I agree with you - very bad juju.
     
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  24. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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  25. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed with @557 and @MJ Davies - while Trump with his mocking of masks has a good chunk of responsibility for masks becoming a political banner rather than a simple, harmless, and helpful public health device, Fauci also has his share of responsibility for so many in America refusing to mask up. People think "oh well, Trump is mocking this, I like Trump, but sometimes I feel that maybe masks are a good idea after all, but then I look at this top doctor and he keeps being inconsistent about masks, so, why bother? If not even the experts can agree on this, I guess Trump is right, f.... the masks."

    This is one of the consequences of Fauci's lies... and it certainly resulted in more deaths than necessary. But it doesn't stop there, like the two posters above said. It spills over other matters. It gives ammunition to the idea that "scientists lie to us." That's really not the message you want to convey in the middle of a freaking pandemic.
     
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