What is Fascism or Reply to Off Topic

Okay, but if you can't substantiate your claims, while I can, don't call them my beliefs. If you can't back it up, they're your beliefs. I have presented facts.

"You either get it, or not" is what a cult says.

 

Citation?

 

Another Jonah Goldberg video that is very informative on the subject of his book:

[video=youtube;kLNyF62nfvQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLNyF62nfvQ[/video]

 

I admit, I don't have and hour and a half to waste on this guy. No time for Glenn Beck lite. You really cannot find an actual political scientist, historian or even an economist to support your thesis? Anything with actual credibility?

 

I don't have any time to waste arguing with a fascist socialist pretending to be an
expert on political science.

 

Who me? Luckily you have not been arguing with me, but merely trying to ad-hom me.

Firstly, let me state that there are two reasons for my amusement at being called a fascist socialist: 1) according to the definitions below, fascism is opposed to socialism, which makes the phrase something of an oxymoron. 2) You still apparently have no recourse against the evidence I have presented, except to attack me personally, as though that will miraculously make your thesis correct. Secondly, I have not claimed to be an expert on political science, I have merely shared what the actual experts say about fascism:

From the British Dictionary:
fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1. any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2. any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3. prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

From Oxford Dictionaries:
fascism

fas|cism
Pronunciation: /ˈfaʃɪz(&#601m/
Definition of fascism in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1 An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

1.1 (In general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices:
this is yet another example of health fascism in action.

From Wikipedia:

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism. Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

Here's the Encyclopedia Brittanica. It's long, but does have sections specifically on Opposition to Political and Cultural Liberalism, Conservative Economic Programs, and Fascism and nonfascist conservatisms: Collaboration and crossover

Finally, Kevin Passmore, Professor of History at Cardiff, who literally wrote the book on Fascism, defines it thusly:

Fascism is a set of ideologies and practices that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and/or historical terms, above all other sources of loyalty, and to create a mobilized national community. Fascist nationalism is reactionary in that it entails implacable hostility to socialism and feminism, for they are seen as prioritizing class or gender rather than nation. This is why fascism is a movement of the extreme right. Fascism is also a movement of the radical right because the defeat of socialism and feminism and the creation of the mobilized nation are held to depend upon the advent to power of a new elite acting in the name of the people, headed by a charismatic leader, and embodied in a mass, militarized party. Fascists are pushed towards conservatism by common hatred of socialism and feminism, but are prepared to override conservative interests - family, property, religion, the universities, the civil service - where the interests of the nation are considered to require it. Fascist radicalism also derives from a desire to assuage discontent by accepting specific demands of the labour and women's movements, so long as these demands accord with the national priority. Fascists seek to ensure the harmonization of workers' and women's interests with those of the nation by mobilizing them within special sections of the party and/or within a corporate system. Access to these organizations and to the benefits they confer upon members depends on the individual's national, political, and/or racial characteristics. All aspects of fascist policy are suffused with ultranationalism.

 

Let me see, Hitler, fascist socialist; Mussolini, fascist socialist.

Fascism is opposed to communism, only because both are socialist totalitarianism
in nature and are competing for the same stupid segment of the population that are
clueless and think that government can provide solutions to their problems.

So while these are left wing philosophically, a right wing political ideology would be
someone who is a free market conservative capitalist republican. This philosophy
is centered on more individual freedom and less government centered power.

Those who don't know what the true definition of fascism is are only deceiving
themselves. They are the socialists who just think that it hasn't been done right
and are doomed to have history repeat itself as it already is again. Notice the
moves against freedom of religion, the freedom of speech, and the right to bear
arms. Notice the move to prosecute criminally people who refuse to accept the
government sponsored religious beliefs such as global warming and abortion on
demand ritual of human sacrifice. Notice the group think and the necessity for
all to agree. It is down right creepy.

 

What exactly is your definition of socialism? What is your definition of fascism? What do you think a nationalist is? Hitler and Mussolini are both famously nationalists, not socialists.

What is your definition of communism? What do you think the difference is between communism and fascism? If they're competing for followers, they must be different.

You're describing economic issues here. Do you know the difference between the economic spectrum and the liberty spectrum?

Authoritarianism and libertarianism are not exclusively left or right, but on a different scale altogether. Left and right of the spectrum refer to economic policy. Authoritarianism and libertarianism refer to the degree of freedom. As you can see, there are authoritarians on the right and left. That's fascism there on the right.

So this is a super-secret definition that even the experts are unaware of, but you, somehow, are? One so secret that we are 9 pages in and you are yet to share it? Honestly, I think you're making all of this up. I would love to see this definition with a link from a reputable source.

Again, that's vaguely referring to authoritarianism (or totalitarianism, which for the moment we might as well consider equivalent). Fascism is an authoritarian form of government, albeit a nationalistic form of government. In the picture above, it would go in the top right corner. Communism is an authoritarian form of government too, albeit in a socialist form. It would go in the top left corner.

au·thor·i·tar·i·an
əˌTHôrəˈterēən/
adjective
1.
favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.

Is there a chance that you are confusing fascism with authoritarianism?

 

Seems I've made my views pretty clear, I don't know why you need further explanation.

As far as Nationalism goes, what do you think nationalism is? What does it matter? I don't think that is a political philosophy that is being advanced by our political parties. If Germany was nationalist, how is it that Japan wasn't? What about the USSR? Weren't they nationalists?

I don't think there is anything that is Nationalistic about America at all since we are so diverse, more so than any other nation on Earth.

Let's cut to the chase, what you are really trying to do here is fear monger and race bait, trying to gin up fear of the far right as a bunch of Nazi's and frankly, this tactic is just plain stupid at this point. Trying to associate republicans or the
Tea Party Hitler just makes people more angry and makes the democratic party that much more irrelevant.

 

Yes, your views are clear. You're understanding of the concepts and nomenclature, however, makes you appear a bit ignorant. I'm curious as to what you understand these words to mean. That's why this thread exists, right?

nationalism
1
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Yes, we are not very nationalistic, and somewhat socialistic compared to some other nations. We are indeed very diverse. I did not claim otherwise. That being said, we are still partially nationalistic, and partially socialistic. Nevertheless, there are many Americans, particularly Conservatives, who are none too pleased about that. I would suggest that these people lean more towards nationalism, and away from socialism. Do you agree with that?

Frankly, you seem delusional here, I am trying to do none of those things. I have specifically said, several times in this thread, that just because fascism falls to the right end of the political spectrum, it is to the far right, and does not mean that everyone who is to the right is a fascist. I have given definitions of the word that precludes the vast majority of right-wingers, and nearly all American right-wingers from being defined as a fascist.

At the same time, it seems to me that you just called me, personally, a fascist, not to mention any other ad-hom you've been able to come up with. So, let's not play this game. You cannot backup your claims with relevant sources. You cannot even provide your secret definition of "fascist" that experts are unaware of. You have not even attempted to counter my evidence, and have provided none of your own.

Again, I have done no such thing, and yet that is exactly what you have been trying to do to the left. I didn't see you object when someone referred to Clinton as "Hitlary", right? What kind of hypocrite are you?

 

So every country in the world is nationalist as I see it. Who doesn't take pride in their country?
Who doesn't root for their own sports teams or Olympic teams?

As for the rest of the questions, I've been quite clear and have proven my point.
If you want to continue, please go to post # 9 and answer the questions.

 

That would be patriotism. Nationalism is more the idea that citizens are to serve the state, which is seen as a single geographic, cultural, and racial entity. Compare with socialism where the state is an extension of the citizenry.

You've been clear in that you clearly don't know what the terms you are using mean. I'm not even sure what your point is, much less how you've "proven" it.

 

I'll be waiting on that response to my questions from post #9.

Until then, I'd rather not waste my time with a phony expert on political science who is not
even aware he is a fascist socialist.

 

Again, I never claimed to be an expert on political science, I merely presented the definitions of experts. Oh wait, here it is again:

From the British Dictionary:
fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1. any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2. any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3. prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

From Oxford Dictionaries:
fascism

fas|cism
Pronunciation: /ˈfaʃɪz(&#601m/
Definition of fascism in English:
noun

[MASS NOUN]
1 An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

1.1 (In general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices:
this is yet another example of health fascism in action.

From Wikipedia:

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism. Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

Here's the Encyclopedia Brittanica. It's long, but does have sections specifically on Opposition to Political and Cultural Liberalism, Conservative Economic Programs, and Fascism and nonfascist conservatisms: Collaboration and crossover

Finally, Kevin Passmore, Professor of History at Cardiff, who literally wrote the book on Fascism, defines it thusly:

Fascism is a set of ideologies and practices that seeks to place the nation, defined in exclusive biological, cultural, and/or historical terms, above all other sources of loyalty, and to create a mobilized national community. Fascist nationalism is reactionary in that it entails implacable hostility to socialism and feminism, for they are seen as prioritizing class or gender rather than nation. This is why fascism is a movement of the extreme right. Fascism is also a movement of the radical right because the defeat of socialism and feminism and the creation of the mobilized nation are held to depend upon the advent to power of a new elite acting in the name of the people, headed by a charismatic leader, and embodied in a mass, militarized party. Fascists are pushed towards conservatism by common hatred of socialism and feminism, but are prepared to override conservative interests - family, property, religion, the universities, the civil service - where the interests of the nation are considered to require it. Fascist radicalism also derives from a desire to assuage discontent by accepting specific demands of the labour and women's movements, so long as these demands accord with the national priority. Fascists seek to ensure the harmonization of workers' and women's interests with those of the nation by mobilizing them within special sections of the party and/or within a corporate system. Access to these organizations and to the benefits they confer upon members depends on the individual's national, political, and/or racial characteristics. All aspects of fascist policy are suffused with ultranationalism.

And at least I have defined the word fascist, and know what a socialist is.

But I can keep this up forever you know...

[/QUOTE]

 

Unresponsive.

 

Fair enough. I wasn't exactly expecting you to try to refute any of all that evidence.

 

Here's a great article about Obama the fascist:

Socialist or Fascist

 

Do you notice that this guy, from townhall.com no less, is using Jonah Goldberg again to verify his claims. Goldberg, who is an author, and not a historian, not a political scientist, nor an economist. So, we're already off to a bad start.

Second, his argument is that Obama has set out government control of the economy, while leaving ownership in private hands. This is a statement true of every non-anarchist, capitalist nation (read: all of them), and was true of virtually every president since the Great Depression (Reagan is the only possible exception, but even he used the government to influence the direction of the economy, with poor results). It's called Keynsian Economics: The economy is guided by fiscal and monetary policy.

 

Yeah, I did notice that. And "this guy" by the way is Thomas Sowell. Sowell is not just some
guy. The whole point of me posting the article is that Sowell mentions Jonah Goldberg.

And it's "Keynesian" Economics.

 

While I must congratulate you, that is a head and shoulders better source, it is still an opinion piece, and one not based on much. I think you've missed my point. If Golberg, and at this point Sowell, had any point at all they would be referencing primary references. In other words, we wouldn't be relying on the understudy of Glenn Beck, we would be looking at academic, peer-reviewed sources instead. Clearly, we're not. Do you know why? Because they really don't exist. The way the spectrum works is that fascism sits on the opposite end of the spectrum from communism. That's how professors of political science see it, that's how our encyclopedias explain it, that's how the dictionaries define it.

Fantastic! You know all about it. So, you don't need me to explain to you why Sowell's comments that Obama is a fascist isn't quite as strong as the argument that G.W. Bush was a fascist. Which is to say, not very.

 

Either you aren't comprehending what they are writing, or you don't
care what they are writing because of your own bias.

 

I could say the same about you and the evidence I've presented. In fact, I think I have.

What are they writing? Perhaps you can make the argument yourself.

 

Fascism is the card you use when your loosing an argument.