Where is the real proof of so-called Jews ever havinfg been slaves in Egypt ?

So why exactly do you demand special treatment? Why not reconstitute all the other states that have passed through the ages?

My British Majestic Duplicity hmm. Well I've not actually mentioned anything about Britain before you decided to pick on my comments.
Again I've not mentioned the Royal family once.
I don't think I've been deceitful at all if anything I've tried to keep this topic on track.

I mean really if you have a problem with the nature of this topic then feel free to present facts and information relevant to it. If you want to contest me then you challenge me in the appropriate area of this forum and under mutually agreeable terms.

 

I was not referring to the domestic policy of Israel. But just the principal of it's existence.
But I do agree that a much more agreeable deal needs to be worked out amongst Arab's and Israeli's.

 

Well, I was thinking of the whole area that came under the Mandate, including all those ethnically cleansed, but I think we both have other people to argue with. Shalom/Heddwch!

 

Not really but rather on <History> one of the two that <Perfidious Albion> has denied our people. We kicked your arse and you left the country...

How convenient... but what do we expect (in general) from a British Pig but a grunt.

Spare me the agony....

Our soldiers a half Jew uttered... They were shooting and blowing your Headquarters because you dared hang their brothers.

You started the ball rolling, I just reminded the readers of British History since you denied ours in stealth.

I am not that at all, I just hate duplicitous Brits, especially when they thumb their noses at you in a condescending fashion and point others' defects when their garden is overgrown and their backyard is full of junk.

 

I've told you that I've not been duplicitous. I have tried to prevent this topic from getting off track.
I've not denied anybody's history. I suggest that you go back and read the topic.
I'm assuming that the last bit is to do with our own internal problems. Well guess what that's our business and it does prevent nor lessen the right make a comment about the world.

You're trying wind me up aren't you? Show me where I've denied you your history?

The agony? I responded reasonably which is pretty good of me considering your behavior. Tell me do you act like this public?

To be honest I can't respond to the rest it's poorly written and you've not actually put any effort into this.

You seem to be deliberately hijacking this thread because it doesn't fit with the way you want the world to work.
Well I will as well as many others will discuss whatever we damn well please without your sabotage.

 

Actually I'd appreciate it if one of the Moderators could delete both mine and HBendors comments. Particularly the more recent ones.

It's really unfair on the other guys. Probably amusing for everybody else watching this absurd slug fight though.

 

(I will ignore and return to topic)

Everything in the bible is mythological and, while containing some interesting historical tidbits, should not be relied on as a historical record.

That being said, everything I remember from early western civ told us that ancient Egyptians did not keep records of historical events. Most archaeologist find their culture incredibly frustrating because of this. So, using "no evidence" as evidence seems like a big logical flaw.

Most likely the Egyptians did use Hebrew slaves. But how many they used, whether there were plagues or not, crossing a sea (red or otherwise) and wandering in the desert are all things we cannot be historically certain of; and it would be assumed that an intelligent person would be skeptical of most of them.

It is highly speculative though to take a lack of evidence and say that it proves ALL of it completely false. We are talking very ancient history.

This issue is one that concerns christians as well as Jewish theologians because Moses is the credited author of both Genesis and Exodus in the Torah or the christian old testament. Moses was also the prime character in the story of Hebrew slavery and the exodus from Egypt.

If Moses and the story of the exodus are all false the foundations of all judaic religion. (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), are built on thin air.

 

Most folk stuff has some origin in fact, though literary treatments can build it up incredibly beyond what those facts were. I knew people who saw the tanks Churchill sent against us in the Rhondda in 1910, despite the fact that tanks hadn't been invented at that time, and the accounts of 'Anglo-Saxon' activities in Dark Age Britain seem totally contradicted by current genetics and archaeology. We can usually be tolerant of such stuff - except when it is used to justify current bullying, racism or whatever - which is why so many debates (the very likely Khazar contribution to/origins of Ashkhenazi Judaism, for instance) become so heated. I don't know what to do about the history, but the racist colonialism is another question!

 

I thought Egyptians had excellent scribes and were meticulous in detail. But that may of been for more practical matters.
Egyptology is not my strongest subject.

But I do agree that the Bible is a questionable source. Not to mention the fact that it has so many varieties as well.

I think there may of been some truth to it though but as Lolo pointed out these things can be altered over time. Kind of an epic version of Chinese Whispers.
So that truth was probably so bent out of shape that if the original actors of the Biblical story read it they would probably be a little bit shocked.

 

Shshh you'll upset Captain anger pants. But in all seriousness using the Bible as a pretext for whatever cause is just plain silly and ill-fortuitous to say the least.

 

To me the Bible is a book of history, the location of ancient sites, the Archeology and History of the ancient Israelites who lived there... etc.,

I might not be Noel Coward in retorts, but I let readers understand what I say... you on the other hand will not be able to communicate in Arabic, Hebrew, Italian and Spanish the languages that I speak and write.

Soooooo, did you change your mind about History and Archeology?

 

I'm happy that you're willing to go back to the topic in question. Yes the Bible does have value as source but I don't all of it is beyond reproach.

Oh lighten up. You've got to have a sense of humour about things. I mean just because we have differing opinions does mean that we have to be at each others throats.

Well actually I am studying Arabic. I've been doing it on and off for about 2 years and am hoping to enter into uni next year for study. Hebrew you got me there nor Italian. I picked up a bit of Spanish and did it at school.

In the context that you previously described. No. But in regards to the topic then yes it's very pertinent.

 

The main thing people have to remember is that the Scriptures were an oral tradition that was passed down for over 1,000 years prior to it being written down. And like all oral traditions, things changed over time. Also there were many "shortcuts" taken by those that told and retold the stories to simplify things. For example, almost any form of time measurement tended to be in 40. 40 days, 40 years, these two pop up over and over again.

The Jews were simply one of many Semitic tribes that wandered through that region of the planet, as were the Canaanites and Phoenicians. And if you look in Egyptian history, you do actually find such a group.

In the era around 1800 BCE, you had a group of Semitic "Foreign Princes" from Canaan and Syria who migrated to Egypt. They settled in around the East bank of the Nile, and eventually came to rule the Lower Kingdom until they were expelled in around 1500 BCE. And the dynastic ruler was named Kamose, who was overthrown by Ahmose who then ejected these "Foreign Rulers".

I believe that what you actually have is a distorted version of real events, but over the passage of time and the desire of all people to make themselves off for the better it changed from immigrants who eventually tried to take over the Kingdom, to immigrants who were oppressed. And even the names (Kamose and Ahmose) could be over the course of hundreds of years become them being brothers.

This is pretty typical to any oral history, be it the Aztecs, the Japanese, the Romans, or the Semitic tribe that we now know as Jews. And even in the US we have our own myths about out founding (oppressed colonists who rebelled against tyranny), which is in opposition with the views of the other side (ungratefull colonists who rebelled against authority when asked to pay for part of their own defense).

Both sides are correct, depending on your point of view.

 

The Bible contains few historical facts, and the Jewish enslavement in Egypt is not one of them. It never happened.

 

The dilemma is The Bible is not a Historical document. We need archaelogical or historical evidence to prove the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt, that supports the Bible story.

 

Actually, there are quite a few known facts.

But their distance from fact is almost in direct proportion to how long they had been oral tradition before they were written down. Hence you have some with little relation to history (Genesis, Exodus), then as you get closer to the point where they actually occurred, they become more accurate by the time you hit the Assyrian Diaspora, and the chronicles of the Maccabees is almost identical to what happened according to the Greeks, save that they added their own mysticism to the story.

In fact, just look at the Battle of Megiddo, and this was chronicled by the Jews, the Egyptians, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians. And all accounts were almost the same, with only minor differences. Of course this was also in 609 BCE, when all of these peoples were literate and were recording their own histories. Necho II of the Egyptian histories became Neco in the Scriptures.

 

Religion is faith pure and simple. If you need to prove something then you ain't got it so just be happy that some do.

 

Problem is that those events are passed on + claimed to be historical truths and incorporated into political policies to justify ethnic cleansing and land grabbing , and claims rights to a piece of land coz their God promised it to them . HUH ?

Even Jews who one minute would describe themselves f as atheists would the next day claim that G-d promised the land to some fictional character from Ur - named Abram who communicated with ...... " Angels " ?


.....

 

Where is the real proof of so-called Jews ever having been slaves in Egypt ?

yep, definitely obsessed with attacking Jews.

 

John 8:33-36 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, `You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever - See more at: http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Slavery,-Spiritual#sthash.wy7coSgB.dpuf

 

Where was the proof of anybody being slaves approximately 3,000 years ago?

Remember, we are talking about the period at the cusp of the Neolithic and Bronze ages. Writing was a fairly new technology, and the Priests and Scribes were the only ones who knew how to use it. The vast majority of people and peoples were illiterate, including the Hebrew people.

Hebrew writing did not even evolve until around 500 years after the Exodus occurred.

Remember, I believe that the Exodus tale we have today is the written story after being oral tradition for around 1,000 years. And if anybody has played "The Telephone Game", you can see how things are changed and distorted for various reasons, intentional or unintentional.

So to the Jews, they were people who helped save Egypt, then were enslaved until God punished the pharaoh then had them freed.

To the Egyptians, they were foreigners who took over part of their kingdom, then were forcefully evicted. In fact, one of the oldest Egyptian histories (Aegyptiaca by Manetho) was written in the 3rd century BCE, and his histories are considered the root of all Egyptian history. Most of our king names come from this history, and he talked about the Hyksos, and how once evicted they took over Canaan and founded Jerusalem.

The real truth? Probably somewhere in the middle of these 2 historical accounts.

 

J'lem had several names long before the Hebrew /Apiru marauding tribes invaded that land. .

Some years ago I slogged reading "Karen Armstrong's . "Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths, I recall mention of Mircea Eliade who pioneered the study of sacred space pointed out that reverence for a holy place preceded all the speculation abt the nature of the world. It is found in all cultures and was a primordial religious conviction. The belief that some places were sacred and hence fit for human habitation, was not based on an intellectual investigation or on any metaphyical speculation into the the nature of the cosmos. Instead when men + women contemplate the world about them they were drawn irresistably to some locations which they experienced as radically different from others
, its more likely to have been a Moabite/ Jebusite Holy space instead of , according to the myth - a threshing field - Shards of vases dated in reign of Pharoah Sesostrics 1878-1842 BC. mention 19 Canaanite cities one of which is RUSHALIMUM Syrian god was Shalem - Rushalimum have been translated "Shalem has founded." a Jebusite city - perhaps ? , .
Shalem was the name of the god of dusk in the Canaanite religion. Its unlikely that the city was "founded " by the Hebrews/Apiru -wotever .


May the search for "Truth" never cease .
,,,

....

 

And once again, you are missing the obvious.

I was not saying that I believed that, but I was quoting a 3rd century BCE Egyptian Historian.

Sheesh, people need to learn how to think objectively, and not take things to freaking literally and out of context.

 

Have you read the historian Manetho? He talks about the expulsion of the lepers.

 

there is absolutely no archaeological evidence that Moses ever existed.
It's a myth story ..a story of personal freedom…

now you can't have it both ways Marlowe , if Moses never existed which is the case ,then the mere mention of him in the koran as a prophet , supposedly the word of God, is false as well.

Most of the characters and prophets in the old testament , Noah for example, another prophet mentioned in the koran…don;t exist…

rather than badgering Jews you should help educate Muslims with the same zeal..