Where should we treat the unvaxxed?

Actually the fact is that vaccines provide zero help.
Just look at the CDC data. Almost the same number of people have died in 2020 as in 2021
As you know in 2021 at least two third of population was vaccinated.
Most likely you are reading a lot of political science.

 

Sorry, but the idea that just isolating the ones at high risk is best doesn't really work. It is a very attractive idea that seems to make sense, until you look closer and you realize that more than half of the American population has one or more conditions that put them at high risk of severe Covid-19 (and many of them don't even know that they have the condition or conditions; so who exactly would we be isolating?). And then, it is in practical terms impossible to isolate them from the other less-than-half of the population given that they need to be cared for and catered to. The best protection for the frail, is if the people around them are vaccinated, which is one of the reasons for the young and healthy to be vaccinated: so that they don't indirectly contribute to killing or maiming their frail loved ones.

Anyway, I agree with you that it is not with mandates that we should be getting the young and healthy to cooperate. I've said it here many times, mandates make people angry and they dig their heels, and are forever lost in the battle for their hearts and minds, while a respectful and gentle approach maybe would have had better odds of success. It's the old story that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar. Certainly my attitude in my original post is not that. In my original post I'm being dismissive, offensive, and disrespectful and that's not how you convince people. But it's a humoristic venting of frustrations. In my real life, that's not how I proceed (and even here where I vent, it's not how many of my posts and threads go; this one is an anomaly).

Certainly we've seen mandates being "successful" and increasing rates of vaccination in certain areas, such as in healthcare and some other businesses. The stats may even prove me wrong and may demonstrate that "mandates work" when you look just at raw percentages without thinking of all the implications. But I'm philosophically against them (except in healthcare where I think they make more sense) and in my professional practice, I don't try to be heavy handed; I try gentle and respectful persuasion, and I respect the patient's informed consent or informed decision to deny consent.

 

Thank you for proving government is totally incapable of managing the resources available to it.

We must conclude that no one in State government knows how to communicate via phone, fax, email, text or tweet, and that none know how to use an Excel spreadsheet.

 

*LOL*

Then why are 87+% of the people in ICU unvaxxed? Why do the vaxxed become infected, be hospitalized and die at a much higher rate?

 

You certainly called it. The bullying by the vaxxers was counterproductive. Personally I was against the vaccines, because of the bullying, but then realized that I was still allowing a bully to control my behavior. So after careful reflection removing all consideration or the bullying, I got vaxxed, and fortunately have not been infected. I'm a big fan of my endothelium and all my organs. @CenterField's input was helpful for me.

 

Because vaxxed people are dying without ICU.
Or your political scientists are just lying.

 

That was not what I meant, All I asked was do vaccinated spread the virus?? I am not antivax but I am anti mandates

 

Oh, so that's why there are absolutely no facts to support your claims. Got it.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm
if you prefer to ignore facts I can't help you.

 

Umm, no my misconstruing amigo.

Explain what you think that means.

 

Yes, when I was reading over material looking up the quotes I provided it struck me also how our view of herd immunity has had to change based on variants since Wuhan and alpha. Herd immunity isn’t going to be based on full, permanent sterilizing immunity to infection. It’s going to be protection from severe disease instead which will be best for those with hybrid immunity. Hybrid immunity will be the cornerstone of whatever level of herd immunity we end up with. The natural infection component adds longevity and decreased viral load in reinfection that current vaccines can’t match on their own.

I am interested to see how much antivirals decrease sequelae before getting too excited, but they are definitely a game changer regardless of how that turns out. They can pick up the slack for reinfections and breakthrough infections as well as naive infections.

They didn’t win on the 60% who are vaccinated. It’s not all negative.

Yes, I would much rather have had you in Fauci’s position. The problem is the demographics that love him would have hated you. Of course lives would have been saved by better handling of the pandemic, but only if you could have survived politically in the arena that obviously doesn’t value honesty and correct epidemiological advice. Who knows though. Good results may have won them over. Merit is still of value for most people I guess. Very interesting thing to think about.

I know you would not last long as chief Covid advisor if it got out you listened to anything I say! LOL. I’m far too offensive to both “tribes”.

 

That’s a good point about basing your decisions on reality instead of just dislike for bullying. And about @CenterField. I’ve said numerous times on PF how lucky it was he was willing to provide medical information at no cost you could not have purchased at any price elsewhere.

 

Meh! Our best mandate was to make sure people get faxed to go to the pub - “you can take our liberty! You can take our freedom but you will never take our beer!” Lols! We had a rush on vaccinations and people were very open about it

 

Good for you!

one more saved - zorro mate you and I rarely agree but you are too good a poster for me to feel comfortable that you were still at risk

Congrats and stay safe!

 

people are dropping like flies regardless of vaccination efforts.
arithmetic course will help to understand as well.

 

They are? Do you have a source for that bogus nonsense?

 

It is up to you man.
You prefer to be in denial, I do not.
Your garbage political science kind of boring.

 

Oh wow! Zorro got vaccinated? I remember I got so frustrated around our discussions on it that I moved him to my Ignore list. I guess I'll re-instate him! Good for him that he got protected!

 

Oh wow, I'm glad that I was helpful, and glad that you got vaccinated! Way to go! Cheers!

 

This is such a nasty disease. I'm sure we have all heard of the young people, often athletes, suddenly dropping dead from cardiac events. I read recently that it's being attributed to the stress of the lockdowns, but, I wonder if they didn't have silent COVID infections that they were unaware of that left their hearts damaged.

My goals are to not get it, and if I do, clear it as rapidly as possible. The vast majority of folks that I know that have had breakthrough infections got them during a series of events that included a plane flight. I don't know if it's the shuttles, the airport or the plane, but, my thought is the plane.

 

After getting vaccinated. You left that out.

 

Being able to push back and then get well-reasoned answers that I could carefully review and study further was very helpful for me. I'm really concerned about it, and continue to distance and so forth, mainly by avoiding the combination of crowds, configurations of reduced cubic square feet of air and reduced air changes from outside air.

 

It seems like the airport itself (checking in, boarding, baggage claim) is worse than the plane, given that planes have advanced HEPA filters that filter the entire air of the cabin every 3 minutes, and bring in 75% of outside air. On the other hand, in planes people remove masks to eat/drink.

I have an upcoming plane trip for Christmas. My wife and I are planning to wear N100 masks, tightly sealed, and to eat/hydrate before we leave the car in the parking garage, and only eat/hydrate again once we arrive at our relative's home. And we both got our boosters.

For Omicron, a booster is highly recommended, since it seems like two doses of the vaccines do not protect against Omicron, but 3 doses do (it's an issue with neutralizing antibodies titers). Omicron seems milder, but we just had the first confirmed Omicron death in the UK, no other details known to me.

Your point about cardiac deaths following Covid is well-taken. Currently the advice for people who had it, is to verify the state of the heart with blood tests (specific enzymes that show if there is any destruction of heart muscle fibers) and EKG and refrain from strenuous exercise until all is clear.

 

Great. I tried my best to provide those answers but at some point I got really frustrated (I get moody and snappy sometimes; I'm far from perfect, haha) and put you on Ignore... sorry for that. I try to be patient but I'm not always patient. Some days I'm harsh, even though I know that being harsh is not the way to go in order to convince someone that the risks of the vaccines are outweighed by the benefits.

Gentle and respectful approach works better. But here on PF I oscillate between the two. While in my professional life I'm ALWAYS gentle and respectful, here I'm less so; I have currently a thread going where I started by being really disrespectful to the vaccine-hesitant. I think I experience the need to vent frustration from time to time. Is it the best attitude? Absolutely not. I'm aware that it isn't and that it backfires, but again, I'm not perfect.

I said, I'll consider that if I can persuade just ONE person to get vaccinated, it's worth all the hours I spent typing up my Covid-19 posts. So, mission accomplished!

 

During my 41 years of medical career, I've worked for federal hospitals, state hospitals, and private hospitals in different years and stages of my professional life. Each has its own characteristics and its own pros and cons, but I wouldn't say that the care delivered, and the ability to handle the caseload, is overall any better in private hospitals as opposed to most governmental hospitals; some aspects are better, some are worse; things end up even.

This, because in America the same standards apply everywhere to all hospitals. Regardless of affiliation and funding sources, they all have to pass rigorous annual quality inspections by the JCAHO (Joint Commission for Accreditation of Health Organizations), CMS (Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services), and State agencies that issue the license for the hospital to remain open; also, all health professionals, regardless if they work for a private or a governmental organization, have to pass the same licensing examinations and prove the same Continuous Medical Education credits in ongoing bases, and have to abide by the same rules of the State Medical Boards, State Nursing Boards, etc.

An example of pros and cons - while sometimes State hospitals are less able to deliver certain expensive medications due to budget constraints (exceptions can get approved), they are also less subject to abuse and pressure from private insurance companies that are always trying to get patients discharged before they are well enough.

I could go on and on about the pros and cons of each kind of hospital, but my conclusion over the decades is that it all evens out.

Much is made of dysfunctional VA hospitals. It is true that the vast VA is at times a gruesome bureaucracy to navigate, but while VA hospitals do have some peculiar troubles, they do have some advantages too (such as extensive and sophisticated expertise in dealing with PTSD and with physical rehabilitation of battle wounds and amputations, and they often provide more comprehensive services than their private counterparts would have provided to a similarly impaired patient).

I think the problems with the VA are more linked to its size (it's the biggest hospital system in America) than to the fact that it is a federal hospital system. I think that if a private company took over the management of the VA system, the problems would likely be about the same, or some problem areas would be addressed but others would pop up.

State hospital systems are more manageable than the VA (given that they are much smaller) and I don't feel a significant drop in quality in these hospitals, as compared to private hospitals.

I've worked in hospitals in blue states and red states too. Same thing. Not much of a difference.