Who is the most moral upstanding person?

Thanks yard.

Its nice to see an atheist who can agree and disagree without the animosty and such disdainful prejoratives like, "learn to read!," at the beginning of a discussion.

I don't agree with atheism, but I understand it and many atheists are reasonable and good. I have a very tough time remembering that based on what I see on this forum routinely.

Thank you for the reminder that honest faith is a good an honest thing.

 

if you are looking at Kohlberg's theory of moral development - then in this case you would state unequivocally that the atheist is more morally developed.

That is not to state however that all christians choose their morality based on fear.

the majority of christians I have met certainly do not, and many of the most morally developed people I have known are christians.

 

Cool rant, bro.

Maybe you should read the thread before you post a reply.

 

Maybe you should stop assuming that people participating in a thread requiring literacy can't read bro.

Maybe you should stop hurling prejorative accusations and then defending the tactic by thinking everyone is too stupid to know that you insult them? Because ... well, isn't this a thread about morality?

Is it OK to insult people because you think they are dumber then you? Is it OK to insult people through the relative safety of the internet? To behave in a manner that you would never do in person?

Maybe you should read Cass and Yard's posts (if indeed you can even read, because this is appropriate).

In the mean time, you may want to tighten your magic cloak of victimhood.

And then ACTUALLY participate.

 

Prove me wrong!

I probably would act like that in person if you acted as childish in real life as you do online.

Stop misrepresenting other people's points.

Stop generalising.

Every single post you are taking issue with refer specifically to the examples in the OP.

That atheist is more moral than that Christian. Its blindingly apparent.

I don't see anyone saying being an atheist makes you more moral.

Cut the hypocrisy.

I've already made my post:

Any problems with that? Am I attacking you somehow?

 

This scenario hinges on assumptions.

 

I think that's somewhat the point. It's demonstrating that mere belief won't make you more moral - good people are good people whether they are religious or not.

 

And bad people are bad people whether they are religious or not.

 

Exactly. While I consider myself a Christian, I am also a very liberal one compared to the puritanical fascist version we see today. I understand that just by spouting "Hallelujah", "Amen", or praying in Christ's name makes me moral, or good in general.

I'm also curious as to why the OP chose to word his poll as "Atheist" vs "Christian" instead of "religious".

Remember, religion is flawed only because man is flawed.

 

I don't think that was the question.

 

Yes, I know.

 

I wouldn't read too much into it. It wouldn't make the character in the poll any more or less moral if he was Islamic, or Buddhist, or whatever. The OP probably just picked it out of familiarity.

 

exactly.

it would be interesting to look at what factors influence moral development. there is plenty of evidence that it is not based on whether one is religious/a believer or not, but on other factors.

religion MIGHT in some instances make a person more inclined to act morally, but this is not necessarily so.

 

Seriously, I need to prove that FW made the stupid statement that we would not steal because, obviously, we fear God showing up and smiting us right then and there.

Serious dude.

Someone has to prove to you that we can read? Someone referring you back to other posters in this thread, and you think it is not trolling to jump in, AGAIN, with your personal animosity about this?

You are already wrong, you just have an ego problem.

If ou had followed you own advice, you would see that the author of the OP offers up some clarification - carification that FW does not, wven has he jumps onto the old bandwagon of 'fear' being what drives us.

I mean, given that this is a repeated claim from atheists on this forum, and I can indeed read (go figure), I am sure FW was only aiming at the OP as a hypothetical - I mean there is no way that atheists who constantly talk about Hell like its a physical threat from big mean Christians were talking in a totally innocent and hypotheical manner - that ONLY the OP has clarified and that Yard and Cass state specifically.

You'd know that if you read the thread before jumping in victim.

I think it is much more plausible, given the recent string of accusations and personal animosty that have graced your replies to me that you were just looking to exercise that chip on your shoulder, and, as usual, it doesn;t go well for you.

So buck up, dry your eyes or keep crying if you want to, and wrap yourself in your super victim cloak all you want, I hear the claok is super absorbant so it may even help with the excessive tears - probably not much help for that sucking sound between sobs though.

I means are we supposed to treat that as an actual rebuttal?

You are still not actually debating

 

all evil's first post in this thread was:

note - he italicised "specific" - however I highlighted the statement in bold to emphasize that in effect, all evil's response was no different from mine.

 

And what makes an atheist act like a better person?

I mean this as no insult, but when people are at rock bottom, they do not turn to atheism.

Lets look at this from a slight less obvious moral position. What would it take to convince an atheist that drink had become a bad influence on his life?

In a larger society, things like the Methodist Church and Mormonism have strong moral codes against drink, and in the period where these religions evolve there is a strong need for them to be that profoundly against drink and dissipation.

Where does an atheist turn to when drink get out of control? AA? Strong spiritual aspect to that too.

And yet the reality is that alcohol, once it gets a foothold, can rip a family apart.

So, how would an atheist be made aware of this problem BEFORE it ripped his life apart? Because the reality is that an atheist who start down the path of alcholo abuse is no better than a Christian who does - but there is literally nothing in atheism that will serve as a wake up call.

In fact, there is nothing in atheism AT ALL about becoming a better person.

Conversely, religion is filled with things about how to be a better person, from dietary guidelines, family, spirituality, moral codes, wisdom, etc. and teh whole point is to be a better person, to be better child of God and to be closer to him.

And that is one of my issues with atheism. At best it is stagnation. A bad atheist stays a bad atheist. A good atheist stays a good atheist. But there is nothing in atheism that allows an atheist to look at what another atheist is doing as say, "What you are doing is wrong, and as an atheist you should know that." Its why Satanists get away with calling themselves atheists - even as obvious lie.

That kind of accountability exists in all other religions.

So when I see things like, "religion MIGHT in some instances," the reality is that it does in many instances - and sometimes not. Too be bluntly honest though, I have never seen anyone adopt atheism and become a better person.

No offense, but when Christian leaders extoll the public its for things like this:

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=41044

Go forth and be charitable, help and take care of one another.

Now, the largest atheist organization in America's featured campaign?

http://atheists.org/blog/2011/08/05/now-is-not-the-time-for-atheists-to-back-down

Ummm, take down a cross - that'll make you a better person.

And that is ultimately the point. I have no idea how spending all of your time on someone else's faith, often inacurrately, is going to make ANYONE a better person.

Simply put, it can't.

That does not mean atheists cannot be good people, but if they are getting better, its something they do on their own, for their is no community or community standard for them to strive for or to help them along.

And the worst part? Charity, selflessness, love, forgiveness ... what is best has been known for a long time.

 

Thats not what the OP asks, though.

It's only asking about a specific Christian. This particular Christian only abstains from theivery from fear of divine retribution. He is less moral than someone who abstains because it is the right thing to do.

 

Let me give you what he actually posted.

Additionally, the OP clarifies and further expounds upon that line of thought.

And that line of thought is all over this forum Cass. I have corrected that same stupid comment about religion using fear to control people .... hundreds of times.

I have also had an enraged Evil following me around to insult me and take exaggerated issues with everything I say.

Do you think I am out of bounds to correct the OP, FW, and Evil in the erroneous assumption that Christians don;t steal because ---- SHOCK---- we know it is bad to steal and not because we think God is going to show up and shove a cross up our butt? Really?

Why do I even have to make that correction?

Clearly its because I am illiterate.

Really Cass, its OK to tell an atheists he's out of line. THey'll probably scream and (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) at you too, but ... who cares? A lie is a lie. An erroneous chain of logic remains an erroneous chain of logic.

Same chalenge I gave out yesterday - show me Jesus using fear to bring people to God. Explain to me why he does not kill the adulterous woman in John 8? Explain to me the entire message of grace that Jesus give us, the profound and commonly known sacrifice that gives us fogiveness and absolution ...

And then explain to me why its all fear based.

Explain to me how evil thinks the reading and comprehension problem is not his own?

 

Sure. Keep rationalizing.

The rebuttal, which has to be offered five times to lodge into the wool headed minds of atheists is ....

MOST CHRISTIANS ARE NOT MOTIVATED BY THAT FALSE PORTRAYAL.

Duh!

Simple enough for a four year old to get.

Just not an atheists with a chip on his shoulder.

Who would have thought.

You dropped your cape again.

Besides, we KNOW, its an absolute fact, that an atheist will only avoid stealing because he thinks he will be caught by the police.

Oh wait, we HAVE to debate from a position false moral position so atheists can say, "I am not motivated by fear!" Just ignorance.

 

This is plain as day.

LibertarianFTW posted:

Which Neutral quoted and replied:

Yeah, I think its' fairly safe to say he didn't read LibertarianFTW's post before he replied.

 

Nobody said they were.

In fact, both Cass and I said they weren't.

It's a hypothetical scenario about a particular individual in order to demonstrate a point. Why can't you understand that?

 

I think its the same with everyone.

the higher capacity for empathy, the greater the capacity for moral action.

probably much the same as what would convince most modern day christians.

Interestingly, I know a number of atheists who don't drink. some have seen the damage that alcohol has done in ther own families, or among others, some have become aware of health impacts ... and of course there are other reasons.

but not getting drunk isn't really about morality. whether you are a christian or not. Its about exercisinf self control - which you may do for a number of reasons (fear of social disapproval, fear of consequences, or whatever else).

AA has a spiritual side, sure .... but people who have developed dependencies have already demonstrated a tendency to focus on some external source for their strength. whether they are believers or not.

education

doesn't have to be. atheism is just absence of belief in god.

there is no code of ethics associated with atheism.

life is full of ideas on how to be a good person. It starts in the cradle, and doesn't have to have anything to do with religion

but atheism isn't a religion. the same things that can drive a person to be good exist regardless. the God dimension isn't necessary. An atheist has has much capacity to recognise whether someone is behaving well or badly as a christian. the religion isn't the issue.

to be honest ... I don't think I have ever seen someone become a christian and become a better person ...

they might have learnt to exercise more self control if their conversion was precipitated by coming to terms and addressing some kind of addiction; but that doesn't necessarily make them better people. Hopefully it will improve their behaviour and reduce the negative impact they have on the lives of others (it doesn't always).

well thats great, and so they should if they claim to be following in christ's footsteps.

maybe it will. it might make a person shake off fears that old them back and discover who they really are - and witjh increased self awareness can come increased empathy - which in turn leads to more positive moral awareness.

none of which are the sole property of religion.

 

yeah.

I think he is right.

you should learn to read without trying to second guess that he is trying to attack christians just because he is an atheist.

 

Yeah, I think its fairly safe to conclude that you all actually think that Christians think that way.

And now, we can add super stubborness and arrogance to the list. I mean, we have to take issue with someone saying, "Christians don;t think like that."

Of course, I notice you NOT taking issue with either Yard or Cass saying that?

Because this is about that chip on your shoulder again is it not?

Here's a shock for you. Not only can I read, I can remember.

We still are not motivated out of fear of Hell slick.

I am sorry you have to be such a jerk about someone repeatedly correcting this aspect of OUR faith for you.

 

I am not.

And you should stop defending someone just because they are an atheist.

There is no guessing about his intent. Its not th first time I have seen it, and it COULD have been solved with him simply stating, as you did, "Most Christians do not think that way and the OP is thus inaccurate."

He didn't. I did. And you know what, I have EVERY right to clarify that - especially to someone who DOES routinely attack Christians Cass.

And as you can see above - its not the first time he's pulled this.

As I believe I pointed out Cass, a persons ideological stance is no indicator of their character. Stop assuming either mine or Evil's is.

Evil could choose to be a big boy, he didn't. That simple.