Who is the most moral upstanding person?

The Atheist walking through the mall who sees the opportunity to steal something he really wants but chooses not to because it would be wrong.

The Christian walking through the mall who sees the opportunity to steal something he really wants but doesn't because he's terrified of going to Hell?

The Atheist who chooses not to look at porn because it objectifies women. Even though they are hot looking women.

The Christian who salivates at the idea of looking at porn but doesn't because he's terrified he'll go to Hell?

 

Neither.

A person's morals doesn't speak for a belief. It's what that person choices their morals to be.

 

Interesting conclusion Krane.. Your conclusion also concludes that 'free will' does in fact exist, else there would be no 'choice' of what "their morals" are 'to be'.

 

You are confused on what Chrisitianity is and what a Christian would think when confronted with temptation. A Christian wouldn't worry about hell because a Christian knows he or she isn't going there.

Christians have a clear understanding of what is right and wrong. An Atheist would be confused if the sitution wasn't cut and dry.

Look at the Rioters for instance. Suppose you had an Atheist. Usually that atheist sees stealing wrong. But an atheist who feels it unfair that some people having more then him might justify burning and looting....because rich people need to be taught a lesson. They have money and the Atheist doesn't and its not fair---a lesson needs to be taught. Its justice.

A Christian...might realize that stealing is wrong..period. And that coveting what someone else has...is wrong too. Its one of the 10 commandments and very clear.

So an Atheist might not even know they are morally inept and might run in the orgy of destructive fun.

A Christian is tempted...and may or may not fall into temptation. If they successfully block the temptation it isn't because they fear going to hell....but because they know it is wrong and they find the strength to turn away from temptation.

 

In those specific circumstances, it would have to be the atheist, I guess.

Most people are just good because they are good - they dont have to think about it. Do theists really avoid doing immoral acts because they fear punishment? I don't think thats the case at all. They just do because because it is good, no different from the atheist.

 

Ringo's got it.

 

Exactly!

I liar of theological beliefs is choosing to be focused on their own verses caring about what the lie does to anyones else. Hence look what the 'lie' has done to mankind.

A good person is good because they choose to be.

The tyrant is self made but often because they learned it from another.

Ie... Pedophilia in the church leadership

 

Exactly!

I liar of theological beliefs is choosing to be focused on their own verses caring about what the lie does to anyones else. Hence look what the 'lie' has done to mankind.

A good person is good because they choose to be.

The tyrant is self made but often because they learned it from another.

Ie... Pedophilia of the church leadership upon children

 

Excellent!! That would also mean that 'god' cannot exist, as a omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent 'god' and freewill cannot coincide with each other.

 

What if god created free will?

 

In this case it would definitely be the atheist who values and respects certain things so much that he will choose not do them even when he wants to.
The christian in this instance is about as moral as someone with a tyrannical policeman following them.
I'm only talking about this situation where the reason where the christian is acting is because he is afraid to go to hell, not because he loves god, I am not anti-religious.

 

Then its not freewill...its what 'god' wants freewill to be.

 

Never mind, just forget I said anything.

 

In the examples you give, the atheist has more morals because he's not doing something due to his morals while the Christian in that case is not doing something because of the punishment he may face.

 

That's the way I see it too. Not all Christians do things because it's the right thing to do. Some don't want to do the right thing and only do so because of fear of hell that's been driven into them by their preachers and family members.

I know in the past I thought twice about throwing something out the window of the car because I worried about what God would think. Once I didn't care what God thought I just checked for cops and let it fly. Someone, from the government, will clean it up before they mow the grass.

There are things in my life that I would've done differently if I had done what I wanted to do instead of what I thought God would want me to do. I allowed religion to control my actions instead of my own logic,common sense, wants and desires.

But that is why I think, for some people, it is better that they believe in a false God than in no god. Some people need someone watching over their shoulder to get them to do the "right thing."

 

This just proves that atheists are self righteous fools.

A person can be good or bad and be either atheist or religious. To think otherwise would be to deny reality itself.

And no card carrying atheist would want to base anything on something so clearly at odds wih reality.

Except ... they do.

Atheism is about the illusion of being better than other people. You aren't.

 

If god is infallible, omniscient, all knowing, and all powerful, as the christian faith states that it is, then there can be no free will.

If god is infallible and knows all, knows your whole life and everything you have done and will do, there can be no free will.

Why?

If god knows exactly what your going to do, then you can do nothing besides that. If you did it would mean god is not infallible. You would have just proven god wrong and basically destroyed the foundation that everything was built upon.

So either there is no free will, or god is not perfect.

 

I'm sorry but...
Lolwut? I'm not trying to start an argument I just don't understand what you mean. There are self righteous atheists but god knows there are also obviously self righteous Christians (a christian evangelical once condemned of my best friends to hell for being bisexual and he said it right to her face). Atheism just means you don't believe in god, no attitude towards other people is even implied, we just happen to be talking about a case where the christian is "good" not because he believes in the act but just because he's afraid that god will send him to hell. It's like if I was good and there was a good guy with a gun following me everywhere.

 

I say its the atheist because the atheist knows deep down that they need all the help they can get in terms of staying out of hell and the Christian just assumes they are a shoe-in because they believe in God no matter what they do.

Seriously though, you mistake the motives of all Christians. Some actually have the love of God in their hearts for other people. In addition, they actually act on what they believe. In fact, those that don't act on what they believe, do they really believe? If so, then why not act on it?

 

I like how you attack me for grouping all Christians into one (when I clearly stated otherwise) but go on to attack all atheists.

 

Your logic only works if your trapped in linear time like we mortals are. When time is open like the pages of a book the logic makes more sense. You have free will but God knows what you are going to decide to do before you do it. That doesn't mean he limits your free will just that he knows what you are going to do before you do it. Cause and effect doesn't apply to a God who isn't trapped in linear time.

 

That is exactly the point. I was responding to an atheist who was assuring us, by virtue of his faith choice alone, that he was a better man - or that atheism is a better predictor of mans worth.

The lot of it is cadswallop.

There are very good Christians. There are Christians who simply adopt the mantel of Christianity (or any other religion), and there are others who wear it as cloak to cover ... darker things. The same goes for atheists, there are fine and honorabe people who are atheists. There are those who simply enjoy wipping people, and the supposed superiority of atheism is but their rationality, and then there are those who, like any other religion, use atheism as a cover for ... darker things.

I think the only sure sign of a good person would be someone who seeks an honest choice to delve into their faith choice with a earnst desire to be the best man or woman they can be.

No one is perfect, but anyone who thinks a simple choice of faith alone, bereft of actual effort, is a good sign of superior morality? Well, lets just say they may want to take stock of themselves.

 

Neutral, learn to read.

LibertarianFTW explicitly stated that he was referring to only the examples given, and in the examples given, the choice is clear. That particular atheist is moral and that particular Christian is immoral. He gave no judgement beyond that.

 

In the example given, the choice is clear. Then again, if the Christian was abstaining because he knew it was right and the atheist was abstaining out of a fear of getting caught, the tables would be turned.

Some fundies think that morality comes down to fear of hell and hope of heaven (you know, the ones who say that they would do all sorts of terrible things if it weren't for their beliefs about the afterlife), but I seriously doubt most mean it.

In reality, theists and atheists do the right thing for similar reasons.

 

Yawn.

Maybe you should take your own advice? Maybe drop the cape wearing super victim routine for a minute or two? If possible?

Atheism is no better predictor or moraity than any other faith choice.

Now, an atheists AGAIN telling me that the only reason that I would not steal something is because I fear punishment from God? That's just (*)(*)(*)(*)ing stupid. I am glad, once again, to be reminded by atheists that they capable of reading my mind - and ever other Christians mind while they are at it.

I am glad that the lot of you is to lazy to referrence anything about Christian morals and use that rather than gortesque caricatures to define us.

The idea that Christians are unaware of cost benefits analysis, or are not trying to be good people, are solely motivated by fear? That is crass and utterly stupid. And it SHOULD be treated as such.

It should be treated with the same level of disdain as someone who say that an atheist is a worthless scum bag based solely on his faith choice - and that is pretty much what you are defending being said about us.

We're getting more than a little tired of these kinds of stupid, accusatory antics so obviously at odds with reality. I am sorry that your faith rests on insulting people through lies about their faith, but, quite frankly I don;t give a crap.

Stop assuming you know what is in the mind of a Christian when he does something, because if the only thing you think is in Christianity is fear - then you are totally ignorant of our faith, and I will kindly ask you to stop opining on it like you are an expert - and snotty one who things people can't read to boot.

Maybe atheists should try to explain their own faith for a change rather than bad mouthing other people's faith? I doubt many atheists CAN do that though can they?

And they should certainly stop donning the super victim cloak whenever someone corrects them lying about or deiberately mischaracterizing someone else's faith.