Who is the most moral upstanding person?

WTF? Are you insane? My first freaking post in the thread says that "Christians dont think like that".

You can't even remember to post 5 of this thread.

... That quote is about the use of hell as a threat to those who don't believe it. It has nothing to do with how it motivates you, personally.

If you use hell to threaten me, I dont consider the threat to hold any weight, but you still threatened me with what you believe to be a legitimate threat. This would make you a dick, and it would make me angry at you.

Not only is that quote not in context, it's entirely irrelevant.

 

Yes I (*)(*)(*)(*)ing well did. Go back and read the first page.

 

I am not.

I read what I read, and I really think you are fighting shadows.

 

How?

Empathy alone will not lead to morality. Stealing, when you can get away with it, especially something small, produces no great empathy. My borther works as a retailer for a large retailer - they lose several hundred thousand dollars a year from shop lifting, yet I see no great empathetic outpouring to stop this?

the moral action to not steal a new I-pad is not born of empathy. Its born of understanding and wisdom.

Quite frankly, when looking at an I-Pad, the thought to simply take it does not occur, there is no thought given to the absent store owner or corporate spread sheet. Its just wrong so I don;t do it.

Even if you are in a crumby marriage, it still not OK to cheat, even if there is a alot of empathy for your bad marriage.

What you advcoate is actually the Golden Rule, and there is certainly an aspect of it. In Christianity, its slightly modified:

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7-12

That is not what I asked.

I did not drink when I was an atheist either. I did not drink as an atheist, quite frankly, because it was me showing how much better I was than other people - and I very often see that same aspect of atheists I know that don't drink. THey don't drink because they are better.

I did drink as a Christian. Never excessive, but during a rough patch, I slipped. I sat down with a minister who knew what was going on, and, well before it got bad, I was able to see it starting to slip and stopped drinking again.

There is also the spiritual aspect of drink intereferring in your relationship with God. A bad thing if you actually have faith - a terrible thing (not fear, are we clear on that yet?)

That would never have happened if I were an atheist.

The point being made, is that it does not take much for something like alcohol, even in moderation, to get itself a foothold in your life. And once it does? There is nothing in atheism that helps you recognize it.

And the military just completed a resiliancy studt that showed that faith, as it does with AA, are beneficial.

Atheists of course, don't like it.

http://www.militaryatheists.org/spirituality.html

Nevertheless, it is.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

http://www.newscientist.com/article...a-product-of-evolution-software-suggests.html

There is the evolutionary benefit - one consists of a genetic model, one consists of a more cooperative nature inducing the benefit. Both are guesses at the reasoning behind a clear benefit.

AA, Resiliency, Evolution vs. what?

Education is not atheism Cass. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, atheist, whatever, we all have access to the same education.

Nevertheless, like above, what happens when .... you start to develop a gambling problem? What aspect of atheism do we refer you to? How part of your ideology would allow me to demonstrate that what you were doing was harmful?

Yep, that is EXACTLY the point. How does atheism make you better person then?

What standards and objectivity is there to measure yourself against?

Christians think that charity, as you are able is a good thing - and we extoll each other to do as much as we can. If you are atheist and conclude that charity is not for you? So?

What is the pull to be a better person AT ALL, as opposed to the in a few cases that might possibly be happening in religion?

And yet you just stated that atheism doesn't have an alternative solution. And you are right, we get bombared with all kind of things. Things like sex being good, have as much as you want - only to find that it is empty, superflous, and draining devoid of actual affection and love.

And that was written down thousands of years ago.

Yeah well, my wife knows I cheat, so its good. Is it?

How does atheism help you fix your compass and ensure it is straight? It doesn't.

Atheism is a faith based conclusion. It has organizations, propganda, etc. just like religion. Unlike religion, an atheist can pick and choose what he or she does and does not want to follow. There is a distinct lack of accountability.

And you may not need God for accountability, but you need something for it - and atheism does not have it.

In the meantime, consequences for poor or rationalized choices remains, and consequence is a far harsher teacher than wisdom.

And I think you are just reacting out of anger.

Agh yeah, over coming addiction will and indeed is something that will make you a better person.

Agh, so we are back to being motivated by fear.

Do you know how that cross came to be there? It was left there after the attack. No one put it there. It is something that remains after a horrific attack.

How is it better to take that down? How is it better to ask other people to shove their faith aside? How does asking others to sacrifice something make YOU a better person?

We should be kinder, more charitable, people vs. stop expressing your faith.

Really.

None of which are actually advocated by atheists. Those things cannot be, "Well I could do that do." If the only time atheists face them is when religious people ask or talk about these things?

That is sad indeed.

And I find it very interesting that atheists throughout this thread define their morality, repeatedly, by castigating religion - not be extolling the virtues that are not religions alone .... but are someone important to atheists as well?

 

And quite frankly I disagree. I think the intent is clearly expressed by multiple posters, many of whome have made the exact same point repeatedly on this thread.

I think any of them could, indeed can, clarify that this is a supposition for debate only and acknowledge rather than fight the clarification that we do not.

They failed to do that.

I have no compunction about correcting lies about my faith. None.

So yes, I think you are just taking an atheists side because he is atheist. In fact, I see that a lot with atheists.

 

I didn't vote because I am an agnostic.

Agnostics are more moral than either.

 

Umm hmmm ... I am the one actually quoting mutiple posters making the same stupid point about us being motivated by fear of hell.

#1 - and this should address the entire stupidit your entire ignorant arguement.

Jesus rarely mention hell at all. His ministry is NOT on based on fear - which you would know if you stopped telling us what we believed and avtually read or studied what we we believe.

But why, again, ignore the repeatedly correction of your erroneous stupidity? Why let little things like facts get in the way of perfectlygood bigotry?

Very moral of you.

#2 - You don't believe in hell. So the fact that you are more worried about hell then you are about a spoon growing magic wings and stabbing you in the heart ... painfully, means what?

That you live your life in actual fear of nighhtmares that you know are not real?

Or, like above, is it about ripping something out of context and using it as a tool to buldgeon other people in order to derive self worth?

Here you are ostensibly making the claim that it is WRONG, WRONG I tell you, See my super victim cloak, I earned it!, for me to crroect the fact that we don;t walk around spewing hell or being overly concerned by it.

However, five posts later, you are victim of someone deliberately taking hell off the table, because hell is central Christian concept? Motivates everything we do with atheists?

Let me clarify for you.

You are not going to hell because you are an atheist. You are going to hell because you are a liar.

See?

 

Then please clarify.

WTF are you taking issue with me, the OP, but not you now, making the case that Christians do think like that?

No, I have no right to notice things like this?

Now by all means, explain to me how this is out of line to a bunch of notwits having a converstion about a hypothetical in Christianity that none of you thinks is real?

Well, thanks for proving me right.

 

neutral, basically, you look to christianity to find answers that are available in all of us regardless of faith.

Thats Ok if it suits you, but its a waste of time arguing with people who don't share your views.

as I think you probably know, I have spent a large part of my life working with people who are dsadvantaged in some way shape or form.

I do this because, for whatever reason, I wanted to do things that made a difference.

I also feel good when I do things that I feel are worth doing.

Most people I know - regardless of whether they are believers (not just christians) or not - operate much the same as me.

morality - whatever that is - IS shaped by empathy.

we learn from a young age not to do things if they hurt others. we also learn that part of getting on with others means learning to exercise self control.

unconsciously, this shapes what we believe is "right" and "wrong"

if we are more "morally" advanced then the reasons we make decisions is based on whether we see things as intrinsically right or wrong. this means that we have internalised the idea of right and wrong.

if we are less morally mature we may choose to act/not act for other reasons - including fear of punishment/reprisal.

usually people at this level are not able to "put themselves in someone else's shoes" (ie their empathy levels are also less developed).

a lack of self control is a lack of self control, not immorality, and sometimes results in hurting others, and/or ourselves. we may experience guilt, and/or fear of discovery.

we may punish ourselves, but that doesn't make us moral, either.

thats all there is to it, and this is true both of believers and non believers.

and

... I am not going to respond to you again until you stop ranting.

 

rubbish!

agnostics doubt whether they are moral or not!

 

Where?

Tell me, where does an atheist go to in order to discover the virtues of compassion? Love? Forgiveness?

Seriously, where do you go to seek information on whether there is or is not really even a God?

There is available, and there is following Cass.

and when someone points out that these things are NOT found in atheism, getting pissy does not change the fact that they are not there.

Furthermore, an addiction is VERY MUCH A MORAL problem. Addition begins with moral rationalization, and the addiction takes you over completely. You have to reliaze that it IS wrong, that it causes you AND OTHERS pain, before you can stop it .... or that rationalization will continue to kick in.

We very clearly have a very different read on morality Cass. Believer and none believer may be equal, but our capacity to grow is quite obviously different.

Faith helps, Evolution, Resiliancy, Recovery from addiction all say so. But you don't want to acknowlegde this? It is now a rant.

Morality works the same for all of us, because you say so?

Why are you down here at all Cass?

You do this everytime you come down here. You wan to come in a challenge other people's faith, but every time you come down here, your own is questioned every bit as hard and you get pissy.

You have no one to blame but yourself Cass.

You certianly don't need religion for the concept of personal responsibility.

 

I dont give a (*)(*)(*)(*). That is not the topic of this thread. I say again, please read the thread - specifically the two options in the poll. That is all anyone except you is talking about.

Why let the topic of the thread ruin a perfectly good rant?

 

I've always held ethics over morals. So your question is rigged IMO. You must remember, a "moral" person can screw you today and ask for god's forgiveness tomorrow. However, there are people with both. I believe in a higher power, yet always try and do the right thing, even when it's wrong. I don't believe an atheist can truly have morals. Morals are guidelines that stem from religion. That doesn't mean I believe an atheist can't be a good person, more often than not, they are very ethical. In my perspective, morals are like marriage in lacking of all substance without belief in a higher power.

 

That post shares the bigotry of a Christian religious wingnut and perhaps why the term atheist even exist; because they are hypocrits to the values of equality, empathy and the innert moral fiber of the human race.

Ie... Either you believe like them or you are an atheist.

I find that the "atheist" as a label is a Christian creation. Kind of like an anti Semitic is just a Jewish creation and in both cases both religions are human creations, in fact.

Ie.... If having a choice was not the option, there would be no religion! Funny part is as mankind learns more, eventually there will be no religions!!!!!!!!

 

have you thought that that atheist is has a greater moral objectivity purely because he can be honest with himself, first?

. Often the best example of an Antichrist is found by observing a Christian. Why? Because the "creed" requires the person to false witness even to themselves to be 'accepted' as a Christian.

that person you are arguing with is one of the worst on the site

 

A therapist and his patient are sitting in his office.

The patient confesses to killing several people.

The moral thing to do: call the police and inform them, even if it costs you your career.

The ethical thing to do: keep it confidential. Professional guidelines are put in place for a reason. People need to be able to trust their therapists in order to receive true help.

Both are right, as well as wrong, and morals and ethics don't walk hand-in-hand at all times. Now I ask those who claim to be atheists and those who claim to be Christians, which would you do? I guarantee it will split almost 50/50. "Morals" have religious connotations attached. To ask which have more "morals" is rigged from the get. As morals don't always dictate what is right.

 

except that most likely the therapists code of conduct may well make it mandatory to report a crime of violene, even if it has occurred in the past.

http://www.ehow.com/about_6756687_therapist-code-ethics-reporting-crime.html

morals:A person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do (webster's)

ethics: a system of moral principles.

 

I think you're right, they did change that in the last decade, but it wasn't always so. It's a hypothetical anyway. I think you get my drift.

 

Maybe. Thats beyond the scope of the question, though.

 

Oh, after lecturing me about comprehension, you failed to miss that the point of this thread is to debate whether an atheist or Christians are more moral. In fact, there is a poll that goes with it, and that poll does not have the caviate, "Well, based only on the presentation of the OP's situation," does it?

But no Christian had better point out that the OP, or the atheists basing their decisions off the flawed moral concepts (commonly advocated on this forum) is based on flawed, and deeply ignorant analysis.

In fact, Hell, though a part of Christianity, is not what most Christians dwell on - we dwell on God. And in this circumstance, if you take that tact, it allows you to crap on a Christian.

In another thread, the very idea of Hell is a literal knife to your throat, once agains justifying your anger (I see atheism has an anger management issue?) and allowing you to crap all over a Christian.

Its called being fundamentally dishonest. And the actual goal is anything but moral.

The simple fact that your are raving like a lunatic because someone dared to say, "Not so fast atheists, the vast majority of Christians are not motivated by fear, so why bother addressing a false dilemma anyway??"

Well, maybe you should take stock of yourself before you continue to take stock of others.

When al of your morality comes from deliberate miscomparison of others, you probably have afew moral issues of your own - and in this case, they are pretty damb clear.

 

Yep, and many atheists are liars and trolls. Most atheists don;t seem to care about that though.

Once again, do we see the trend of angry atheists who define themselves solely through accusation at others?

Do yoy, Cass and Evil, understand why there is a need to correct the egregious stupidity that flies out the mouths of atheists?

And atheists spewing hate that assumes that all Christians are dishonest?

Silence from the druthers of atheism, and personal attacks for anyone who stands up to them.

And you wonder why atheism is sliding down the old trust scale?

 

An atheist and A Christian.

 

And from that we should probably be using the statistical probability of the average atheist and the average Christian and why they would reason through a moral question? Ya think?

Devilishly hard that. I mean, debating conjecture from an a deliberately misleading premise for a poll is sound intellectual process and no one has any right to correct the faulty premise.

Lets make the correction yet a again, most Christians believe that doing the right thing is nordinately PLEASING to God, not that it thwarts the devil (though it does). Its that relationship with God that is central, and, as you obviously have not read the Bible and refuse to put aside the think skinned egoism to allow correction, you will notice that the relationship is one that is centered around God's love for us.

I realize that whole Jesus on the cross thing is difficult to understand ... if you don't read it anyway.

So why don;t we talk about reality, and while we are at it, why don't we acknowledge that a group of atheists talking headily about a subject that is quite deliberately inaccurate - should probably be corrected.

I mean after all if you saw someone talking about if 2+2=5, and that fed a poll that says math is accurate or inaccurate, you would probably want to correct the basis of said poll as well.

Good to see you act like a raging jerk for 12 hours about a simple repeatedly made correction though.

So, based on what I see here, lets ask the actual question:

A. A Christian sees an opportunity to steal with zero consequence and does not steal. He knows its wrong, and knows that it is a Sin. There is just no question about it for him.

B. A atheist see the same opportunity but likewise does not steal, he too knows it is wrong. However, later that night he rubs it a religious persons face to demonstrate how his atheism is a moral thing, and remind the Christians in the room that they would only do the same thing because they are motivated by hell and then ignores everything they say to the contrary.

Who is the more moral person?

 

No. What?

The point of the OP was, presumably, that religiousity will not make a person moral, nor will lack of religiousity make a person immoral.

You are reading waaaaaaaaaay too much into it.

 

The premis of the OP is fundamentally flawed in terms of religious and atheist arguementation.

You are simply being way to egotistical to acknowledge a simple point that you have apparently already made, but felt to the need to jerkishly jump in and tell me I should not correct for other atheists.

It simple, that is not what motivates the vast majority of Christians.

This is nothing more than your ego at this point, and the utter unability to acknowledge even a simple correction.

A poll based on fundamentally false premises is wrong.

Nice to moral atheists defend it, because all it really is, is an excuse to crap on someone.

Keep it up.

You dropped your cape again. Its still wet from all tears of victimhood.