"...comes across as the last desperate argument, of a person with no legitimate point to contribute, to the debate." Nope, I'm just stating facts. I'm not going to concern myself with whether or not it offends someone, or if they're not able to understand it.
And only important when they can blame Jews. This conflict isn't about about a Palestinin state, it's about hatred of Jews. When Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank part of Jordan there was no weeping and wailing about the poor Palestinians not having their own state. When Palestinian communities are driven out of Arab countries there's no international outrage. They're not fooling anyone, they hate Jews and want them out of the Middle East, preferably by killing them.
That Israel's attack is wholely unrelated to the Hamas attack, is so patently false, that it seems odd that you would start a thread to address only those who subscribed to this bizarre, & obviously counter-factual theory. If this is truly the case, I will suggest that you should have made mention of that, in your OP. I think, though, you mean something different than that-- or at least that those making the allegations, had meant something different than that there was no connection whatsoever. I will guess that these people you allude to, instead view October 7th as being used by Israeli leaders, as a pretext for something that they had wanted to do, anyway. But this is an entirely different question, you are bringing up-- the thinking of those in power-- which is far more complex, and more difficult to ascertain, than whether or not Hamas attacked Israel and killed its civilians (and took some hostage, @Pisa ), on October 7th. Show me the posts, disputing that. This was what my point had been-- DEFinning said: ↑ What is the point, you are trying to make? Are you under the ridiculous impression, that people deny the Hamas attack? Apparently so, since that is your obvious focus. <End Quote> If they deny the attack happened, then they are manifestly screwballs, who need not be debated-- or with whom this discussion should take place, in the "Conspiracy Theories" forum. Again, all who have a grasp of reality, admit that the Hamas attack occurred. That is not the point of dispute but, rather, what actions by Israel are warranted, by that attack. Also again, there are exceedingly few-- such that your debate might seem more efficiently done with private messages, rather than a public thread-- who deny Israel's right to attack & kill Hamas members. The preponderance of the objections, are over the killing of Gaza civilians. You really should know, that much. Your link is to a person making an argument that is false, on its face. I am not going to chance returning to the site (because of my earlier tech glitch, which had begun that way), but the basic argument, which you are repeating, is that people don't really object to the killing of innocent Palestinians, but are only objecting because it is Israel, which is doing the killing. Again, I cannot say that there are no anti-Semites, who don't give a crap about Arab lives, behaving in this way; but that would be only the fringe of objectors. So there is something very wrong, on your end, to assume of the vast majority of people, what is only true of a small portion of them, with extreme views. BTW, since we are having this discussion on an English speaking, American forum-- that is the population, about whom my claims apply. The argument in the X/Twitter post you'd linked, had been that if people were really upset by Arab deaths, then they would have reacted the same way, with protests, when ISIS was killing Arabs. Once more, your failure to see the bogus nature of this argument, suggests your own, highly clouded view. The fact of the matter, is that it is well understood, I think, that terrorist organizations do not respond to world political pressure, the same way as most nations-- especially First World, democratic nations. Did you not understand this difference? The better analogy, would have been to collateral Arab deaths, caused by those nations (including the U.S.) which had been fighting ISIS. This is where we get to the 2nd major flaw in your model. The first had been not recognizing that terrorist groups, behave differently than respectable nations. The other is that it is an accepted given, that there will be some civilian casualties, in any war. My contention to you, is the negative response that Israel is getting, is overwhelmingly the result of the scale of the non combatant casualties. Had the numbers been comparable to collateral damage which had been seen by the world as acceptable-- and, btw, the U.S. has, itself, taken flak over unnecessary civilian casualties, in the past; so that deflates your argument, right there, that it is only because Israel is doing it-- then all you would be hearing, would be those few, truly anti-Semitic voices. But Israel has not gone about this, in a cautious way, as if trying to minimize civilian deaths and destruction. There are threads full of examples of this, which I'm not enthusiastic about needing to write, all over again, for just your benefit. The post of mine that you were answering, however, had included the interview with the American nurse, talking about the deplorable conditions in the refugee camps, and instead of your addressing that, you had only spoken about the history of Hamas. So this is clearly your own, contorted view, in which (as I had asked you) because of this heinous attack by Hamas, that killed over a thousand Israeli civilians, you seem to feel Israel is justified in killing countless more, Palestinian civilians. The bottom line, is that the numbers of the dead, in Gaza, are off the charts, in comparison with other such military actions. When the U.N. and the nations of Europe, and even the U.S. government, are all saying this, why do you doubt it? Let me guess-- because everyone in the whole f'ing world, is anti-Semitic, right? FYI, that argument, doesn't make you sound like a rational thinker, but rather is what would be expected from a person with pathological paranoia (assuming the person actually believed it). I have elsewhere cited the battle of Mosul (against ISIS) in which the civilian population had been forced to stay in the city. Yet, that hard fought victory, after nine months of fighting, reducing much of Mosul to rubble, brought about 9000 non combatant deaths. We saw that many, in the first three weeks of Israel's assault on Gaza. I will give you one more example, to end this post. It is well known, and has received wide condemnation, that Russia has actually targeted civilians, in Ukraine. This has not been ignored, due to Russia's not being Israel. Putin has, in fact, been charged by the World Criminal Court, in the Hague, with War Crimes. Yet, in that war, in the relatively large country of Ukraine (certainly big, compared to Gaza) over 18 months, had been fewer civilian deaths, than in Gaza, in six weeks: <Google Snip #1> Number of civilian casualties during the war in Ukraine 2022-2023. The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 9,614 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of September, 2023. Furthermore, 17,535 people were reported to have been injured. https://www.statista.com › statistics Ukraine civilian war casualties 2023 - Statista <End Google #1> And yet, for people to question, that more than that number have died in Gaza-- you can only see as a sign of anti-Semitism? Does that just about sum up your view? If so, it only shows how removed from reality, is your perspective on this situation. <Google Snip #2> Gaza health authorities deemed reliable by the United Nations say at least 11,500 people have been confirmed killed in an Israeli bombardment and ground invasion – more than 4,700 of them children.3 days ago https://www.aljazeera.com › news <End #2>
Jews have to suffer a lot of hate because many people resent their intelligence, their success and prosperity. People resent Israel because with no oil wealth Israel is the most prosperous country in the Near East.
Nope, Anti-Semitism has some other causes*. Jews are completely normal people, neither smarter nor stupider than others. Thinking of Jews as a "master race" is a special form of anti-Semitism. The Nazis also considered Jews to be overly intelligent, which made them very afraid of Jews. *) For example: "israel's" behavior on the battlefield, its ruthlessness towards Palestinian civilians, high number of civilians killed. Anti-Semites blame the Jewish people for this, not the racist Zionist agenda. ----------------------- snip ------------------------ Serious or satire? Zionist monsters celebrate their extreme disregard for humanity.
"Jewish Genius," by Charles Murray, Commentary, April 02, 2007 As soon as Jewish children born under legal emancipation had time to grow to adulthood, they started appearing in the first ranks of the arts and sciences. During the four decades from 1830 to 1870, when the first Jews to live under emancipation reached their forties, 16 significant Jewish figures appear. In the next four decades, from 1870 to 1910, the number jumps to 40. During the next four decades, 1910–1950, despite the contemporaneous devastation of European Jewry, the number of significant figures almost triples, to 114. To get a sense of the density of accomplishment these numbers represent, I will focus on 1870 onward, after legal emancipation had been achieved throughout Central and Western Europe. How does the actual number of significant figures compare to what would be expected given the Jewish proportion of the European and North American population? From 1870 to 1950, Jewish representation in literature was four times the number one would expect. In music, five times. In the visual arts, five times. In biology, eight times. In chemistry, six times. In physics, nine times. In mathematics, twelve times. In philosophy, fourteen times. Disproportionate Jewish accomplishment in the arts and sciences continues to this day. My inventories end with 1950, but many other measures are available, of which the best known is the Nobel Prize. In the first half of the 20th century, despite pervasive and continuing social discrimination against Jews throughout the Western world, despite the retraction of legal rights, and despite the Holocaust, Jews won 14 percent of Nobel Prizes in literature, chemistry, physics, and medicine/physiology. In the second half of the 20th century, when Nobel Prizes began to be awarded to people from all over the world, that figure rose to 29 percent. So far, in the 21st century, it has been 32 percent. Jews constitute about two-tenths of one percent of the world’s population. You do the math. https://www.aei.org/articles/jewish-genius/
Here's a criticism about Murray's claims ... https://www.aei.org/articles/jewish-genius/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190562/ As I already said, making Jews somehow special isn't good. This will only increase anti-Semitism.
You agree with me then that hostility toward Jews is based on resentment of Jewish intelligence, success, and prosperity. I admire Jews for those same reasons. Jews benefit every country they live in with their superior intelligence. As intelligence becomes more important to our economy we will need more Jews to fill lucrative and satisfying careers. Unfortunately, there are not enough Jews to go around. In the United States we already have far more than our fair share of Jews.
Islam and Nazism have done their best to make Jews special, especially evil and deserving of genocide.
The Jews are special, but they are not evil. To the contrary they are wonderful people. They deserve the best we have to offer.
I don't do that. All alleged peculiarities of Jews as a group are based on imagination and prejudices.
Serious or satire? In Ukraine we see streets and monuments dedicated to Ukrainian Nachtigall Battalion - a unit which fought together with Nazi Germany or dedicated to Roman Taras Yosypovych Shukhevych (nickname Taras Chuprynka) or Dmytro Klyachkivsky who were responsible for massacre of thousands Poles and Jews using killing methods more brutal than used by ISIS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia So i guess you apply the same rules judging Israeli children song as naming street names and monuments in Ukraine.
Gaza hasn't been occupied by Israel since 2005. Hamas and the Gaza population have created their own hatred. They have no intention of ever living in peace with Israel. The idea offends their hateful little hearts given that Jews are "descendents of monkeys and pigs."
You need more knowledge about Islam ... https://islamqa.info/en/answers/140...ist-nowadays-humans-who-have-been-transformed Btw, Dr. Anastasia Maria Loupis on X: "Do you agree with her? https://t.co/tw8tlF8wfg" / X (twitter.com)
The conflict seems to be expanding. Yemenites (Palestinian allies) captured Zionist-owned vessel. Richard Medhurst on X: "Yemen just released footage of them capturing the Israeli ship yesterday. The West and Israel want to murder Palestinians? Cut the oil, shut the straits and canals, and see how quickly they reconsider. Despite all the destruction the West wrought, Yemen still fights for https://t.co/Cz6uHUHylU" / X (twitter.com)
Hmmm, I had some problems answering some post, where Nobody gives a damn if non-Jews country killing non-Jews: How many demonstrations did you see protesting against Rohingya genocide? More than 25 thousand killed How many demonstrations did you see protesting against Syrian civil war? More than 500 thousand killed. How many demonstrations did you see protesting against war in Darfur? more than 30 thousand killed. How many demonstrations did you see protesting against war in Yemen? More than 400 thousand killed. How many demonstrations did you see protesting against war in Chechnya? More than 30 thousand killed How many demonstrations did you see protesting against Hamas attack on Israel? 1200 people killed, more than 200 kidnapped. Nobody gives a damn if non-Jews country killing Jews: How many demonstrations did you see protesting against Israel attack on Gaza/Hamas? Nobody gives a damn what Arabs are doing to Jews: What kind of slogan did hear on the recent demonstrations? From the Jordan river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Did you hear the slogan: From the Jordan river to the sea, kidnapped Israeli infants must be free? Did you hear the slogan: From the Jordan river to the sea, kidnapped Israeli children must be free? Did you hear the slogan: From the Jordan river to the sea, kidnapped Israeli civilian women must be free? SO I think I proved my points: 1. Nobody gives a damn if non-Jews country killing non-Jews. 2. Nobody gives a damn what Arabs are doing to Jews. 3. Everyone is very upset when Jews attack enemies. Scale of the non combatant casualties: I don't trust numbers supplied by Hamas. Do you remember when Hamas promptly accused Israel of killing 500 Palestinians, when in fact a Palestinian bomb destroyed al-Ahli Arab hospital? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/midd...ensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 You cannot compare battle of Mosul with attack on Gaza because: 1. ISIS had 2 years to prepare to defend Mosul, Hamas had 18 years to prepare to defend Gaza 2. Hamas had more money, more support from Arab countries than ISIS. Hamas built underground tunnels to hide, to save food, ammunitions, medications and more 3. Hamas fighters had much better equipment and much better training than ISIS As I said before – Israel wants to ERASE Hamas and I have no idea how it can be done otherwise – if you have an idea – let me know. And I think erasing Hamas is a good idea – Hamas is an orthodox religious organization which promised never make peace with Israel – their aim is to create a Muslim state instead of democratic Israel.
I agree with her - MULIMS are not terrorist, but many Muslims are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
The U.N. accepts the figures I'd quoted, as being credible. If you saw the beginning of the video, I'd supplied, with all the flattened buildings-- which I've heard resembles Gaza City, where half of the buildings have been demolished-- then you might understand, why this is so. The possibly erroneous report about the hospital can easily be explained, in the heat of the moment, as an honest mistake. This was not the Hamas military people, blaming this on Israel. And according to the NY Times, the projectile had been fired from Israeli territory. To be clear, I am not alleging this was anything but a tragedy of chance, no matter who had fired the projectile, responsible for the fire. I had previously accepted the errant Islamic Jihad rocket narrative, when I'd seen that there was no impact crater, as an Israeli missile would have left. However, it is possible that it was a fragment of one of the Iron Dome rockets which, according to our fellow member Truth & Justice, carries a lot more fuel, than do the rockets being used by Islamic Jihad. IOW, your example, does not prove that no information coming out of Gaza, is credible. You are returning to the argument that only Israel can be trusted, in your argument in favor of the Israeli position. How convenient. As I had said from the start, all reports, from both sides in a war, need be taken with a lot of salt, until there is corroboration. The U.N. has people on the ground in Gaza, and has endorsed the eleven thousand-plus figure. That is good enough for me. Where is your corroborated evidence, that the number is significantly lower? Do you know how much ordnance, Israel has dropped on tiny Gaza? It is, honestly, hard to see your rejection of the death figures, as anything but anti-Palestinian bigotry. LOL-- you miss the biggest difference, in that comparison. Namely, the nine or ten thousand dead civilians in Mosul, came by the end of the battle, after the ISIS fighters there, had been DEFEATED. That same number of Palestinian civilian deaths, had been accrued, in just the beginning of Israel's battle against Hamas-- which is still far from defeated. By the time Hamas in Gaza City has been defeated, the number will be far, far bigger than the Mosul total. Moreso than is explained by Hamas's additional tunnel digging time. As far as the weapons or training, while I don't know if this even true, nevertheless, the collateral Palestinian deaths had topped 9,000 before any engagement, by IDF troops on the ground, had even begun. Because you can't think of a way to eliminate Hamas, without blowing up everything, FYI, does not prove that this is the only way this can be done. All the countries, saying the civilian casualty numbers have been too high-- which now includes the United States-- presumably have military experts, whom they can consult. If there was no less costly way of doing this, I am sure that President Biden would be explaining, "There is no way to defeat Hamas, without this many civilian deaths." That he & Secretary of State, Tony Blinken, are saying, in public, that the civilian death toll has been too high, means to me, that there are ways to achieve the same result, with less collateral damage (fewer civilian deaths). For one thing, Israel could provide more notice to civilians in refugee camps, before they blow them up. That's just one suggestion. And you still haven't addressed my point about the unlivable condition of the camps, to which Israel is sending civilians. To whom, they are still restricting water-- even in southern Gaza. You are wrong-- or, more to the point, you seem too easily, self-convinced that your arguments are solid-- your examples did not prove your point. In fact, I had already pointed out to you, the reaction to "non-Jews country" Russia, killing Ukrainian civilians. And this has generated a much more substantial reaction, than a bunch of Tik-Tok videos. Same thing, when Serbian forces of Milosevic were killing Muslim Croats. And examples do not end there. But part of the calculus, when it comes to public reaction, is how well reported, are any of these events. Many get relatively little attention, in the U.S. press. Yet, even in the far removed world of Yemen, the word of civilian suffering did result in our putting political pressure on Saudi Arabia. So, once again, the argument you treat as an unassailable fortress, turns out to be a wet paper bag. OF COURSE, the Hamas attack and Israeli response is going to be a much higher profile affair. And, because this is such a familiar, and long standing situation, of course people are much more likely to already have opinions, than they would about places and people and situations, which are essentially unknown to them. Additionally, you are arguing a point, that I have already debunked-- do you not read my replies? One of the two main reasons I'd given that we cannot reasonably expect the "same response," as your lame Twitter video had contended, when a terrorist group does something terrible, as opposed to when a legitimate world government does, is that it is widely understood that terrorist organizations do not respond to political pressure, as much as this can affect democratically elected, First World national governments. Additionally, the reaction in the U.S. is, understandably, boosted by the fact that we give such a great deal of military, and political, support to Israel, which makes us a seem, in the views of many, a party to it.
Jackson Hinkle on X: " Though Netanyahu won’t admit it, ISRAELI journalists write that the over 2,985 ISRAELI soldiers have DIED since October 7th, and 11,600+ have been injured. Israel has walked into a trap. https://t.co/kGlXl4MLNy" / X (twitter.com) Good news, they can no longer murder Palestinian children! Please arm Hamas like Ukraine. Then perhaps Gaza could win the war.
Wow, those are some harshly cold words, to be singing, with a smile: "In another year, there will be nothing there... Within a year, we will annihilate everyone..." Yet @zalekbloom saw nothing at all disturbing, in this, huh? Well I guess it is no worse than the picture I'd seen (from 2005 IIRC) of young Israeli girls, signing bombs, during another flare up, something like, "To the People of Gaza, with love from Israel." That is some messed up , that parents could inculcate that way of thinking, about another people.
