Why Turkey should be NEVER included EU?

LOL So Americans do not have a haretige to bve proud of?

Thats okay, I am Jewish and (*)(*)(*)(*) proud of that Haretige.

BUt nationalism also has an ugly face in America. The nationalist are the white nationalist who are proud of their AMericanness and want all minorities out of their white world.

So thats a reason why nationalism is a bad thing in America atleast. Because most in America believe in being a great country found on freedom, of all people. Not just Americans

BTW, since when was theri a standard to be able to be a nationalist?

 

Turkey has "more" national heritage than Belgium?

LMAO!

Depends, though. Didn't knew the Byzantines were Turkish, nor was I aware the Ottomans were Turkish either.

What has "Turkey" ever done for the world?! Oh, that's right, invading Cyprus, violating UN Resolutions, waging a war against their own citizens, censor the press, one military coup after the other, eating salt yoghurt (WTF?!), etc.

Sorry, but I blow my nose in the heritage of Turkey.

 

More envy from a failed dwarf state ...

 

Its clear you lack the knowledge of history, so i will not debate about this, you first have to study enough history to reach my level, and then get back to me-maybe we'll continue this conversation. And yes, Ottomans were Turkish, they came from OSMANOGULLARI, a Turkish tribe lived in Anatolia. read and learn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Dynasty
and for more detailed info- you really do need it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz_Turks

Our ancestors lived everywhere from the coasts of pacific ocean to the mediterranean, as i have said, we have a historical heritage that goes back to 4000 years.
(just to give you a single history lesson- you know the famous chinese leader MAO? well, that name came from the famous Turkic leader METE HAN (still a turkish name today) METE HAN is pronounced "MAO TUAN" in Chinese.
Anyway, from Chinese to the Balkans, Turks lived among many different civilizations and contributed greatly to their culture. You can only wish your people have lived among as much civilizations as we did.

Are you seriously comparing Belgian national heritage with Turks?
look, dont go and talk about this outside, people will make fun of you-

We are talking about historical heritage- national heritage- and reasons to be nationalistic. and why chinese-japanese-turkish people "deserves" to be more nationalistic compare to Belgium or USA- that is ofcourse my point of view- you dont have to agree with it- anyway- what we are talking about has nothing to do with cyprus, eu , etc.. are you a child?

so you "blow" your nose into the national heritage of Turkey ha?
and you know what, since this is an internet forum, you are free to do so.
but know this- if you had said this to me face to face- with a single move- i would paralyze you from neck down

 

I do believe there is a "right" to be nationalistic, if you are from historically older nations like China, Japan or Turkey-Greece. these civilizations lived among many others, and have been one of the most stable and "strong" tribes of humanity. remember what Darwin said? Survival of the fittest.
Well, these tribes have been there- standing tall and proud- for many thousands of years. Many others have come and gone, but these are not- so yes my friend, i do believe there is a significant reasons to be proud of our national heritage- especially if you belong to a historically older race/nation- like the Chinese or Turkish.

but ofcourse nationalism might be bad thing- how old is USA anyway, how old does American history go back to? Turkic history goes back to 4000 years, what about the ancestors of USA? how long does that goes back? or what about Belgium?
look- i am not trying to insult nations here- but facts are very clear.
in a relatively young nations like these- nationalism will be useless and national identity is less in common among its citizens.

you said you are jewish- that is one big heritage- you have right to be proud of it.

but if you say american or belgian- that is another scenario.

got it ?

 

That alright then. Is Amerca has no haretiage to be proud of. Even though we are a country of immigrants who have over come alot in a short life of a nation.

Thats okay though. I take more pride in my Jewish haretiage and identity then an American haritage of identity.

In fact I think America sucks. Full of to many stupid people.

 

Yes, again, I blow my nose in "Turkish" heritage.

If you seriously are suggesting -- that somehow -- Belgian culture only goes back to 1830 -- the year of the Belgian Revolution than I will challenge you on that.

Isn't it normal for me to ask some serious questions? Afterall, if we would be discussing Italian or German heritage you would include everything before the Italian and German unification in the later half of the 19th century. So why aren't you giving Belgium the same treatment?!

Sorry, but you seem to forget that Christianity has been the state religion of the region you live in -- that would be Turkey -- way longer than Islam. Byzantium isn't the cultural heritage of "Turks" -- Greece would be more correct if you ask me.

Again -- if you are giving Belgium the treatment that our heritage only goes back to 1830 I will apply the same logic to Turkey -- which became a modern state in 1923.

Ang again -- what has Turkey (since 1923) ever done for the world? What is her heritage, besides violating the will of the United Nations, invading Cyprus, being a coward in WWII (after having fought on the side of the Germans in WWI), numerous military coups, launching an offensive against her own citizens,...

Turkisk national heritage is about 88 years of misery.

If you place that against 175 modern Belgian history -- I'm very correct to suggest that I blow my nose in your "great" Turkish heritage.

 

LOL!

Sorry, but we didn't need permission, like 20 years ago, of the international community to become a country in the first place?

Why was that again?

 

I wonder if pride in turkish national heritage

Include Armenian genocide.

 

Of course not! The Armenian genocide never happened -- according to themselves of course. Just like every German claims nobody in their family supported the NSDAP.

 

lol yeah, its against the law to admite the genocide in Turky.

 

We did not need permission to become a country. We already had three countries, East Germany, West Germany and Austria ...

I don't know. Mr. Kohl and Mr. Genscher probably enjoyed the diplomatic game. They were into this in the Balkans later, too.

 

Sorry, but I need to agree with other Germans on this very forum that "accused" you of having a complete lack of self-awareness as a German.

Pretty sad.

 

How many Germans did you ask about it? I just have to meet a German who would have problems with this ...

 

Who are these other Germans? Are these other Germans the British poster "Red"?

 

You have any idea about what kind of things did "innocent" armenians do in Anatolia?

 

In some European countries, like France, it is against the law to deny the so-called genocide- this is equally wrong as what you have mentioned above- people should be allowed to discuss their points of view, regardless of any pressure or limitations by law.
why is it not a genocide? well, the answer would be too long, but to keep things brief and simple- genocide- by definition- means SYSTEMATIC killing of a race, however, in the armenian issue, the Armenians that were living in Istanbul, Izmir, etc.. they were not harmed at any way, only the ones that lived in eastern anatolia suffered the unfortunate events- which by the way- happened outside Turkey's borders, Turkey simply relocated its Armenian population outside of its crowded cities, to outer territories. Most of them died because of starving in Syrian dessert. They were not placed in gas chambers, they were not systematically shot in the spot, they were simply relocated- which is not a good method to deal with that armenian revolt at the time- however dont forget that Turks were fighting against many different countries, it was the times of world war, so, a decision must have been made, and i admit- not a good one was made- but nothing was intentional- the armenian population within Ottoman Empire were not killed systematically- nothing happened to the Armenians in Istanbul- therefore, by the very definition of a Genocide, it cannot be called one.
Armenians have no argument , nothing significant to be talked about, this Genocide issue is the only way they remain "on the radar" worldwide. I mean what do you even know about Armenia? its one of the poorest countries that will soon get bankrupt, just like Greece. however- this Genocide claim is a good tool for them to be the "new jews" what i mean is, they want to gain equal sympathy from the world- (what happened to jews was truly inhumane and horrific and they did deserve sympathy afterwards, i am only stating that Armenians are trying to get the same kind of attention from the world)

get it?

 

Huh. The "so=called genocide" I take it your talking abotu the Shoah.

The Shoah that the Allies liberated and saw the horror themselves. The Shoah that the Germans kept record of all actions. The Shoah that has left the survivors tattooed, everyday. So when they wake up and see their (*)(*)(*)(*)ing arm they remember the horror.

Get it?

 

Did you even read my entire msg? i hate when people in this forum just quote a tiny bit of a msg and ignore the rest. in my message above, i told you why TECHNICALLY it cannot be called a genocide- look at the definition of a genocide. why does what hitler did gets called a genocide? well, because it was a systematic ethnic cleansing, regardless of location and territory.
armenian issue is NOT the same. nothing happened to armenians that were living in big cities , they were not arrested or re located- just the ones in eastern anatolia (because thats where the riots were happening) there fore, it cannot be called a genocide.

get it?

 

I read your whole post.

I thought you was saying the Shoah was not a real attempt the genocide.

No offense but It wouldnt be the first time I seen someone claim that.

My apologize and I understand what your saying.

 

According to Offical Turkish State Archives,Armenian gangs murdered 523.955 Turks in Anatolia between 1910-1922.Besides the definition of genocide on paper,if you try to compare what happened to Jews and Armenians,I can ask you this question as a start "have you seen any Jewish gang that killed any German in any village or city of Germany?",probably not.What happened to Jews is unique,there is nothing like it in history.As a Turk,I dont denie the Armenian losses but what happened back than was an uprising of the biggest minority of Ottoman Empire during the break out of a world war that painted the whole geography into blood.Bulgarians,Greeks did the same,they tried to get their independence from a crumbling empire and they did.Armenians tried the same thing and they couldnt do it.Thats the whole story.If they managed to establish a "Great Armenia",all those gangs and the massacres they did and Armenian civillian losses was going to be remembered as founding fathers who sacrificed their life for the Great Armenia now.Also,1915 was just the tip of the iceberg.To understand how things developed,how did it come to such a point,you should go all the way back to 1850's and later.America transported the Japanese-American citizens to "camps" when America entered to world war II after Pearl Harbor.Because it was war time.When you consider in how many fronts Ottoman Army was trying to fight,there was not much chance to organize any systematic policy between all the chaos and bloodshed.Now people say "apologize from Armenians,monster Turks" and all that stuff.But what makes them say that is not their detailed history knowledge,its what has been served to them.Turkey would never say sorry because there is nothing to be sorry for.There was not a Turkish Republic back then.Instead,we made a fair offer.Establishing an independent common history comission and solve the problem and if necessary Turkish Prime Minister said very cleary that Turkey would face the black pages of its history.Turkish archives are open but Armenians not.As a result,with parliament decisions,and trying to pressure Turkey politicaly,thats not a way to get an apology.Its just international Armenian Diaspora and making politics over blood.I wrote so long but if you read all of this and want to discuss further,I have other things to say too.

 

Please continue. I know very little about this subject.

 

Armenian committees were very active inside Ottoman Empire such as Tashnak Sutyun which is still a political party today in Armenia,Hinchak and Armenagan.But Tashnak became the dominant one amongst the others in time.It was also called "Armenian Revolutionary Federation".Established in Tbilisi-Georgia in 1890.The motive behind these committees was the young armenians that went to europe for university education and the influence they got from the revolutionary movements of the time.So when they came back,the ideal of an independent Armenia was created.Inside todays conjunction,it was possible to call these organizations as "terrorist" elements.The members of these committees were almost from every part of Armenian society in Ottoman Empire.Business owners,workers,intellectuals even priests met under the roof of revolution and independence ideal.After political propaganda,they organized an armed rebellion in 1894 against Ottoman State in Diyarbakir.This was followed by the one in the city of Van in 1895.Between 1895-1904,guerilla groups under the control of Tashnak involved into many bloody conflicts in Eastern Anatolia.One of the important mile stones that lead the path to 1915 was the Ottoman Bank Raid in İstanbul in 1896.The brain behind this plan was Karekin Pastirmaciyan also known as Armen Garo,an important figure.He later cooperated with Russians also during world war I and he was behind many massacres committed by Armenian gangs in Anatolia.Another important incident,maybe the most important one is the assasination attempt to Sultan II. Abdulhamid in Yildiz Palace in İstanbul.Also planned by Tashnak Federation in 1905.10 years before 1915.During world war I,thousands of Armenian volunteers joined to Russian,French armies to fight against Ottoman Empire.These are the facts that I can add to my previous post.I have some more things to say but I will cut it short for now.

 

But where is this land, Israel, its beautiful....?




Jollee

 

Wow, what a discussion. It was a good read! Thanks everyone!